Back Tension Trigger - Recurve/Compound

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by disbloke

Can't quite see how that would work, to end up on your shoulder would mean that the drawing arm has dropped downwards as you release. Ending on your shoulder should only, if at all, be well after the release and more as a positioning of the hand post release.

Not really - it all has to do with the way your skeleton works.

If you get yourself set up in the full draw position (I've been trying this in the office, and they're laughing at me... again... ), and try and pull your elbow straight back, the further back you go, the lower the elbow will go, until eventually you touch your shoulder with the thumb (or at least I did).

Try this... get three strips of paper and link them together like this
--1--0--2--0--3-- (where 0 is one of the brass clips you put through perforations), so that the "joints" can move. 1 is the shoulders, 2 and 3 are upper arm and forearm respectively.

If you get 2 and 3 in roughly the same position as your arm would be when you shoot, and then pull the "elbow joint" back straight in line with the shoulders, the only place the end of the forearm strip can end up is on the shoulder "joint". Obviously on a real person, how close the hand gets to the shoulder will be dependent on the upper arm development of the archer.

[BowSurfer]

Originally Posted by Meddler

Not really - it all has to do with the way your skeleton works.

If you get yourself set up in the full draw position (I've been trying this in the office, and they're laughing at me... again... ), and try and pull your elbow straight back, the further back you go, the lower the elbow will go, until eventually you touch your shoulder with the thumb (or at least I did).

Try this... get three strips of paper and link them together like this
--1--0--2--0--3-- (where 0 is one of the brass clips you put through perforations), so that the "joints" can move. 1 is the shoulders, 2 and 3 are upper arm and forearm respectively.

If you get 2 and 3 in roughly the same position as your arm would be when you shoot, and then pull the "elbow joint" back straight in line with the shoulders, the only place the end of the forearm strip can end up is on the shoulder "joint". Obviously on a real person, how close the hand gets to the shoulder will be dependent on the upper arm development of the archer.

Surely as the elbow goes back you don't want it to drop, but there should be rotation about the shoulder so that the elbow moves round in the horizontal plane - this is the motion that is generated if you 'adopt the position' and then bring your shoulder blades closer together.

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by BowSurfer

Surely as the elbow goes back you don't want it to drop, but there should be rotation about the shoulder so that the elbow moves round in the horizontal plane - this is the motion that is generated if you 'adopt the position' and then bring your shoulder blades closer together.

As the elbow comes round and the muscles contract, the elbow goes round as far as it can then it starts to drop.

As to shoulder blades coming together - well, IMO the drawing shoulder blade goes towards the spine but the bow shoulder blade should be forward and down. (I'm expecting discussion / flaming here)

Back in the 60s good technique was one where you could hold a sixpence (about the size of a 5p coin nowadays) between the shoulder blades. Techniques have changed since then...

[geoffretired]

Letting go of the string is something that many archers have to work on. When the drawing hand doesn't "GO" where someone wants it to go, ( or thinks it should go) the little tricks start to come out.
"Touch your shoulder with your thumb."
"Make a fist behind your head." etc.
The problem with these little tricks is that all of them do not work for all of the archers.Long necked archers will have a diffferent landing place from those with short necks. Some wrists and finger joints are less flexible than others and that makes a difference to the "Look" of the loose.
What the drawing elbow is doing at that point of release is a huge factor. If it is moving horizontally, the results will be different from one that is moving slightly downwards or steeply downwards. Getting the hand to go where it "should" is not the same as getting it "right".
The hand holds the string;the back muscles draw the elbow round in order to pull the bow. The elbow will drag the hand away from its references if the back muscles are still pulling at the point of release. If the biceps are contracting too, they will affect the movement made by the drawing hand.
Watching the hand and the elbow is a good indicator of what is going on at the point of release and very shortly after. Variations are indicators that the archer is not consistent. I think it is better to get the elbow repeating first. If there are inconsistencies in the hand after that, at least the elbow won't be to blame.

[BowSurfer]

Originally Posted by Meddler

As the elbow comes round and the muscles contract, the elbow goes round as far as it can then it starts to drop.

As to shoulder blades coming together - well, IMO the drawing shoulder blade goes towards the spine but the bow shoulder blade should be forward and down. (I'm expecting discussion / flaming here)

Back in the 60s good technique was one where you could hold a sixpence (about the size of a 5p coin nowadays) between the shoulder blades. Techniques have changed since then...

I agree that the elbow drops a little. the previous post duggested that as the elbow went back it just dropped which didn't sound right. As to the shoulder blades, they don't need to touch, but even today both sides of the back should be working equally and should e in balance. The reason that the bow shoulder (as opposed to the shoulder blade) needs to be dropped is to allow prevent that side of the back from locking up and allow that shoulder blade tomove as well, maintaining the balance.
It would be interesting to hear from a sports physiologist on this if there is one around.

[disbloke]

Originally Posted by Meddler

As to shoulder blades coming together - well, IMO the drawing shoulder blade goes towards the spine but the bow shoulder blade should be forward and down. (I'm expecting discussion / flaming here)

Am iI mis-understanding what you mean? Why would you want to be moving the front shoulder blade forward and down? This would only result in you having to lift your arm, thereby imparting tension into the shot to keep the bow sighted correctly.

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by disbloke

Am iI mis-understanding what you mean? Why would you want to be moving the front shoulder blade forward and down? This would only result in you having to lift your arm, thereby imparting tension into the shot to keep the bow sighted correctly.

Moving the front shoulder blade forward and down takes the bow shoulder down with it and it becomes very strong, not only that but it allows the archer to push into the bow as well.

With the bow shoulder blade up, the tendency is for the bow shoulder to rise, and the line to be lost.

[Rik]

Originally Posted by BowSurfer

but even today both sides of the back should be working equally and should e in balance.

? Is that the case? After all the two sides of your back aren't doing the same thing. The action isn't symmetric. You wouldn't (for example) want to rotate your bow shoulder towards your spine during the shot - you want it to stay still!

Originally Posted by LMP

I was told (in easy terms) if your thumb ends up on your shoulder after the loose then you automatically use your back!

Easy? Yes. Also wrong, in a real sense. The number of times you see people <release> <touch shoulder> sometimes with as much as a second between the two actions! It's less important where your hand ands up, than that it does it consistently. The real trouble with that idea is that you can bring your hand back and touch your shoulder without getting your back properly involved in the shot. Which makes it less than useful. People can get the idea that they are 'doing it properly' when they aren't.

[BowSurfer]

Originally Posted by Rik

? Is that the case? After all the two sides of your back aren't doing the same thing. The action isn't symmetric. You wouldn't (for example) want to rotate your bow shoulder towards your spine during the shot - you want it to stay still!


Easy? Yes. Also wrong, in a real sense. The number of times you see people <release> <touch shoulder> sometimes with as much as a second between the two actions! It's less important where your hand ands up, than that it does it consistently. The real trouble with that idea is that you can bring your hand back and touch your shoulder without getting your back properly involved in the shot. Which makes it less than useful. People can get the idea that they are 'doing it properly' when they aren't.

Not really doing such very different things. The bow arm is extended and the bow is pushing up the arm with a force of 35-40lbs. That weight needs to be taken on the back muscles. On the other side exactly the same amount of weight is pushing in on your elbow, with the weight again being taken on the back muscles. It has to be the same amount of wieght on each side or you would fall over. The only real distinction is that one arm is straight and the other bent at the elbow, but the arm muscles should not be doing the work - your arms are just passive sticks, while the back takes the weight an does the work - equally on both sides.

[Marcus26]

Your front arm should not be taking 35-40lb of draw weight as your skeleton should be taking most of that poundage. ALso your lower traps should be in use for the draw scapula while the muscles at the front of the body (can't remember names, lats?) are used more to keep the shoulder down.