Our problems...

[BorderBows]

Dont read this after having a pint!!!

10 years ago, we embarked on a quest to figure out the effect stability in limbs has on grouping. We decided that with the invention of the XP10 limb,70% improvement on previous limbs, that stability was a thing to have, after Michele Frangili set records with the Border Vision Carbon, the predecessor to the XP10. We also appreciated that speed was also an issue, so out came the ML2 shortly after. With the ML2 we converted some of the stability of the XP10 into speed. Some of our customers noticed this and some didn't.

We have pushed this boundary further, and appreciate that top archers can shoot broom sticks well, and most archers find improvements with stiffer better limbs. PB's were set by medium to almost top archers with these limbs.
In the quest for stiff limbs we have a set of TXG limbs that are 60% torsionally stiffer than our current TXG we have had them for 4 years. They are being tested in Sweden as we speak. We have the query. Is that 60% needed?
For example. If your grouping is at its best, your limbs are catching any flinches. Then is your judgment of wind, and distance is an issue. Could your grouping improve with a faster limb. Its a compromise between speed and grouping. They both effect score.

We don't know where this compromise is. Its virgin territory for all of us.

Do you think that the stiff limbs on the market are doing their job, or is more stiffness needed. Should a stiffer limb be available, or should a faster limb with equal stiffness to the current limbs be available.

We have yet to apply our mega stiff limb laminate. We are not sure its needed as a stiff limb. Where do you think limb design parameters should be?

Stabilised bows use stiffer limbs to their advantage. The stabilisers absorbs the torque created by the release Transfered from fingers to string, to limbs to riser.... Barebow needs a stiff limb, but speed is more critical in points. Would excessively stiff limbs mean that compound type arrow rests be needed as paradox approaches release aid levels?


We have arrived at a custom bow limb concept, as this is a break from "a one limb fits all" convention.

What do you think?

[WhitehartFB]

Interesting point I would have thought that stability of the limb tips is whats needed with a smooth transfer of the limb efficiency to the arrow.

Win & Win have gone down this stiffer route with the Inno limb but at the same time they also developed the Inno carbon riser which works with the limbs. As I understand it, up until now a stiff CNC bow can be more critical to shoot and the quality of the release and technique is even more important not less.

[Ceri Jones]

I should have had a pint to think of this.... (spelling is just as bad without a pint)

For those with modern International fitting limb pockets the argument of custom limbs doesnt really arise that often due to every company having all the equipment needed to make them already set up so a custom and the order would be quick to make, but if you have an old standard bow like the marksman meteor then new limbs are diffucult to get hold of and would need to be custom built, meaning that machine's would need to be re-set up for a one off order possibly making it slow and expensive.
But then no 2 sets of marksman limbs are entirely same, as there limb tips have all been finished diffrently and im yet to see one with the same types of wood in its laminates, as a good discription of this my sisters marksman's limbs are very diffrent to mine and shoot diffrently as well despite only being a few lb's lighter.

But you also raise the question of BB needing a stiffer limb due to having no longrods and this is quite true, having used both training bow limbs and my own marksman limbs, the limbs on the marksman are a lot more stiffer than the training bow limbs despit being the same poundage and there is a notciable diffrence between the amount of tourque on release.
If a company created a set of limbs that were aimed specifically to archers that dont use stabs or shoot BB then the intrset might be there and as no other company seems to have addressed this issue of BB specific limbs there could be a wide market for them.

[Kae]

Some more thought required before I can give any sort of answer, but, if you ever want a guinea pig......... lol.

Kae.

[pHz]

is this just about materials or is it limb profile too ?

the new hex limbs seem to be VERY recurved from what ive seen in photos - looking almost like a 'modern' mongolian limb with (more) rigid ends - what effect does this have on the speed / stability issue (if it wouldnt be giving any secrets away) ?

slainte : rob

[Murray]

In my uneducated opinion, speed is important to the lower end market where archers seek maximum "bang per buck" in order to maximise the effect of lower draw weights, and tortional stability is important to the higher end market where every point counts and the technique is relatively refined.

If there is a trade off, them perhaps it is indeed two different limbs for different markets. Of course you will still get "low end" archers buying "high end" limbs, but c'est la vie.

As for barebow - is that particular market big enough to worry about in terms of capturing the niche?

Sorry... what was the question again?

[Ceri Jones]

Originally Posted by Kae

Some more thought required before I can give any sort of answer, but, if you ever want a guinea pig......... lol.

Kae.

As im returning to BB for winter and in need/want of new limbs for my marksman should have thought about putting that one in. lol

[Bird_2112]

Just trying to define a test for stiffness. Currently shooting winex limbs on a winact riser. If I hold the bow and rest it on my foot I can "bounce" the riser up and down easily. Or put another way flex it forward and backwards with the limb tip on my foot. I can also hold the nocking point and move it a small amount up and down. The "bounce" is not as great as on my old Yamaha EX and you couldn't do it on my old Hoyt carbon plus limbs. I feel this bounce is what exagerates any bad release where the string is plucked by the third finger sending the arrow high. On the EX I am sure the arrow would go higher. The Winex limbs are advertised as faster than the average limb and I'm sure the EX limbs were advertised as the fastest at the time.

So can I say that this bounce test will help show the stiffness of the limbs ?

G.

[Kae]

Just musing's but,

(After reading Murray's post)

Speed is important for lower poundages/low end archer's trying to hit all the distances with said low poundage.

Stability important for higher poundages/high end archer's. As stability helps to make the limb more forgiving of variations in release?

I personally would always take the more stable limb over the faster limb, but at the poundage I use, then that decision is minimal?

mmmmm, interesting, Kae.

[Schme1440]

Originally Posted by Kae

Just musing's but,

(After reading Murray's post)

Speed is important for lower poundages/low end archer's trying to hit all the distances with said low poundage.

Stability important for higher poundages/high end archer's. As stability helps to make the limb more forgiving of variations in release?

I personally would always take the more stable limb over the faster limb, but at the poundage I use, then that decision is minimal?

mmmmm, interesting, Kae.

I would have to agree. Im not particularly worried about speed. Again it comes back to "id rather have a slow 10 then a fast 9" I put up with my dupleeted uranium x10's and poor 100/90 sight marks as they shoot so well. I would not replace them with a faster arrow (ACE) if they would not group as well. So I would happily trade a fast set of limbs for a more forgiving/stable set of limbs.