Carbon vs Glass

[gilf]

You said the following in another thread...

The top target limbs have all moved away from glass as the power source of a bow. Thats becuase it is 40% times and rougthly half a strong as carbon, so great weight savings can be made. Reducing hand shock and increasing arrow speed, putting AFB performance close of Glass powered recurves.

Some people don't like carbon because they say the limbs won't last long term. Archery seems to be a past time where a lot of people tend to say things which have no basis in fact for some reason and I wanted to ask you on your thoughts on Carbons long term stability as opposed to glass or anything else for that matter.

Is it as I suspect one of those myths trotted out or is there some basis in fact.

Not that it would effect my choice either way, just interested.

Just for the record my wife and I both own Borders (among other bows), she has a harrier and we both have Black Doglas with HEXIV limbs. Really wonderful bows.

[BorderBows]

our first main point it that our first main carbon based limb was the talisman golds... this limb has been out in the hands of some avid archers. Thousands of shots.

carbon has a similar fatigue life to glass, if used within its design properties. Not sure why carbon limbs are viewed short life items. They are new and being tested to there limits. How much can it do?

The Aerospace industry has tested these materials to death, and come up with some relability stats. If its relable enough to trust life and limb in a plane, why not a bow.

My issue is, archery used to be, you could have stability or speed. Why just the two, now you can have both. Why does change be seen as a bad thing?

Carbon is a lot lighter than glass, but not all carbon is the same, there are many grades and many different applications. There is a 70% improvement in stability by the correct application of the same materials.

We are confident enough that we have been making 100% carbon powered flatbows, and 100%carbon powered recurve limbs for over a year now. If we didnt think that carbon could take it, then we have made a huge mistake. Our company is 80% carbon based. Alot of eggs in one basket?

You need to talk to someone with a new pair of hex5 ILF limbs. We are getting quotes of 20-25mm improvements in sight marks over long distances.
Gaining stored energy and loosing it in a heavy limb is a waste. We have one of the lightest mass limbs, storing the most energy in the archery industry, with some of the stiffest left/right deflection measurmants on the market. Thats available for the ILF or Black douglas field bow. Two of these measurements are due to carbon, and the other is a by-product of the application of carbon allowing the design to take advantage.

We are waiting on staff stability and return to normailty with our production schedule and then we will start the development of the hex6. So how long do you want your limbs to last? Nice to see Perris saying his border limbs on his Whiteheart are still up there with the competition limbs even though they are 15 years old... But they are not up there with the likes of our TXB...

Carbon limbs have been on the market for 10 years, All top companies are stakeing their futures on carbon. As well as the arrow industry, fishing rods too. The problem with it is, its a pig to work. You have to stay in its design limits. Its expensive to work, its expensive to buy. And its vital to any bow company to master its use, as it has phenominal returns.

The hex4 limb is 3/4's carbon powered. Now with the cxc lamiate it is 100%


Hope this shows our thoughts to this topic.

[WhitehartFB]

Originally Posted by BorderBows

Nice to see Perris saying his border limbs on his Whiteheart are still up there with the competition limbs even though they are 15 years old... But they are not up there with the likes of our TXB...

What's really interesting is a while a go I shot some similar age and spec wood & glass whitehart/border limbs and they felt and performed better. Looks like I could have saved more than a few quid all those years ago by not having the carbon

[JohnK]

My XP10 evolution limbs (entirely synthetic) are 8 years old and have been drawn to past 31" for thousands of shots. They still weigh exactly the same as when I bought them and are still perfectly straight.

[archer_thom]

I had never heard the comment about lower life expectancy, but what about entirely synthetic limbs being less forgiving for archers who are not top level? I have become extremely nervous of high quality limbs after buying Synerzys and G3s that I could not shoot consistently, despite scores regularly in excess of 540 FITA 18 with a carbon wood limb. This is now awkward as I am looking for a new pair.

[BorderBows]

We do not use a foam core. Our synthetic core is not the usual material used for synthetic cores.

Our hyperflex material is used in all our TXG, HEX4-H and HEX5-H limbs. It has prooven to many archers that it is very very stable.

We are confident enough that our core material is temperature stable enough, that we have sprayed our limbs Black, and some Matt black at that.

The amaythist is a very dark colour too, and we still get observations from our customers that the limbs dont change thought the day, dont need "warming up" and they can leave there bow half in the shade, and half out.

Most other target limbs are mainly white. Now we are not sure if thats because white is a crisp clear cut image to portray or is it that it reflects heat better?

Cant think of any other change that would add to inconsistancy. Our ML2 had our Hyperflex core which in many cases still being shot, and some shot hard.

But true, wood cores can be very cost effective, and a highly effective core material.

[peteward]

I get to play with limbs made from many materials, and carbon ,if used in a good design, and of good quality can be a wonderfull material. However I have seen it used in limbs where it is nothing more than a black stripe in the middle.
Some bowyers have found it added nothing to their design, and others found that it made an inferior limb with their design. A few have discovered it's value and know how and where to place it.

Most find that just changing from glass to carbon does not work. It requires a whole new limb design and top quality carbon to realize what it's potential can bring. All carbon is not the same, and all carbon is not suited to making a great bow.
The Griffon I reviewed for Sid is a fine example of what carbon can do for a bow when the bowyer does his homework .

Pete

[BorderBows]

Welcome to the UK

Its frosty here this morning, hope your well, and welcome to the AIUK forum.
As per usual, all new folks on here get the compulsary firts post