Limb problems

[Spejlborg (Denmark)]

Hello Border,

I hope that you did not misunderstand my message.

What i like to point out is.

1. This is the most butiful and best shooting bow i have ever hold.

2. If somone asked me what bow to get i would say Border.

Thow I have had my mishap I will still get a Border next time, just wanted every one els to know that I am werry pleased with your customer services.

[BorderBows]

I have not misunderstood. We do not like people like your self having problems and we will work our hardest to get you sorted.

We can only thank you for your support and understanding on what we feel is a failure of our efforts not just a product. We do tend to take these things personally.

Hope we can sort you out with some great limbs as soon as possible.

[Beardy]

Well I've just reaqd this thread from one end to the other. What can you say.

I was wanting a set of border limbs, but as I've only been shooting a year, I feel I've still some development to do, and unfortunately Border Limbs are not cheap. I am sure I've not reached an optimum poundage, and at the moment I'm considering what might be the best configuration for me. I'm currently shooting a 70" bow with a 25" riser. I'm pondering a 27" riser, or longer limbs, but the are lots of variables to consider. And ( because border limbs are not cheap (did I mention), they are not really the best veichle to use to test out my theories. Sorry Sid(s)

However having read this thread, there is really only one conclusion to come to. I want a set of border limbs NOW! Not sure whether this is sensible or how I'll afford it, but there you are.

[Andyakashrek]

Originally Posted by Beardy

However having read this thread, there is really only one conclusion to come to. I want a set of border limbs NOW! Not sure whether this is sensible or how I'll afford it, but there you are.

Sell your granny.
Seriously buy a pair, you wont regret it.

[BorderBows]

Grannies are not a good veihicle of any buisness.

But we do accomodate trade-ins especially on the newer models.

We also weigh our limbs at the minimum setting as that is where our limbs are the most stable. (vertical string stability)

Can we also say, that different limbs weigh different poundages even though they say the same on the limb. For example, 40@28 can become upto 2-3 lbs different at 32". Our limbs are in most part the lightest at the longer draws of all the limbs, for the same marked weight on the limb at 28"
We recomend you buy what you want at your draw weight, for example. 41# @ 31" and ask the shop to make sure the limbs are what you asked for, not a but of napkin maths of add 2# to the inch!

For longer draws we recomend a longer limb as energy in a long draw length is not the biggest concern. Short limbs are more suseptable (in theory) to techneque flaws.

We are keen on keeping archers shooting, unfortunatly we cannot solve all problems straight away, but we do try...

Thanks for the support though.

[Beardy]

Originally Posted by BorderBows

Grannies are not a good veihicle of any buisness.

But we do accomodate trade-ins especially on the newer models.

We also weigh our limbs at the minimum setting as that is where our limbs are the most stable. (vertical string stability)

Can we also say, that different limbs weigh different poundages even though they say the same on the limb. For example, 40@28 can become upto 2-3 lbs different at 32". Our limbs are in most part the lightest at the longer draws of all the limbs, for the same marked weight on the limb at 28"
We recomend you buy what you want at your draw weight, for example. 41# @ 31" and ask the shop to make sure the limbs are what you asked for, not a but of napkin maths of add 2# to the inch!

For longer draws we recomend a longer limb as energy in a long draw length is not the biggest concern. Short limbs are more suseptable (in theory) to techneque flaws.

We are keen on keeping archers shooting, unfortunatly we cannot solve all problems straight away, but we do try...

Thanks for the support though.

Now you see, all you've done there is confuse me I was under the impression (wrongly, it would seem) that a shorter limb would be better as it would have greater torsional rigidity, and you go and say longer limbs are better!

Go on (now I know I'm going to regret this, particularly as my birffday is next week) make me a recommendation. I'm currently using a 25" riser (WInact) with W&W Everest Longs at 34# (70"bow) and on a circa 31" draw length (though I need to check this as I've just shortened my arrows) with a measured 41# on my fingers.

go on,you know you want to sell me some limbs

[BorderBows]

To get say 38# on a short bow, needs less core than a 38" long limb. The XP carbon idea that is now becoming a mainstream idea needs the XP carbon to be as far apart as possible. So long limbs regain some of that stiffness lost as the cores are thicker.

But on another note!

thats just the lateral (torsional) stability, there are other stability issues too.
Short limbs have less vertical stability. The nocking point shifts more up and down at brace height. This is the inability for the limb to recover from a bad loose.

There is also another down side. which i have tried to explain before. That a drag on a top or bottom finger on a bad loose will have more of an effect at unbalancing a bow on a short limb as the same amount of deflection casued by this loose will have less effect on the longer limb. This goes for any unbalancing of any type, grip, tiller ect.

[Beardy]

Originally Posted by BorderBows

To get say 38# on a short bow, needs less core than a 38" long limb. The XP carbon idea that is now becoming a mainstream idea needs the XP carbon to be as far apart as possible. So long limbs regain some of that stiffness lost as the cores are thicker.

But on another note!

thats just the lateral (torsional) stability, there are other stability issues too.
Short limbs have less vertical stability. The nocking point shifts more up and down at brace height. This is the inability for the limb to recover from a bad loose.

There is also another down side. which i have tried to explain before. That a drag on a top or bottom finger on a bad loose will have more of an effect at unbalancing a bow on a short limb as the same amount of deflection casued by this loose will have less effect on the longer limb. This goes for any unbalancing of any type, grip, tiller ect.

So longer limbs are better, with the only real drawback being torsional rigidity which on the whole can be mitigated by the use of modern materials?

[BorderBows]

in short yes and no.
The bar of stability has been raised with modern materials, but thats now a new standard so its all relative..

If we werent so far behind with production, id do a torsional test and post the results.
Longer limbs require more core/width to achive the same draw weight as a shorter limb. The advantage we discovered with using XP carbon was that the further appart the laminates were the stiffer the limb got. (not a revelation to be honest) What this means that for the same poundage the drop in torsional resistance is not as great as you would expect.
The Cross over point we think is important, is do you want a limb thats torsionally stiff or one thats vertically stable or a good working compromise. Its longer draws on longer limbs that are putting in some of the better scores in top competions? for example 70" bows, not 66".
The difference in a 10% geometry change in limb angles produces a significant drop in vertical stability in a limb, which is where the observations of a limb thats wound right in is not as accurate as one that wound out.
So the change in geometry that a longer riser is that it increases the amount of bend on a limb, decreasing the vertical stability.

For example, put a 66" limb onto a 27" riser, giving a 68" bow. but to get 8" brace height it needs to hammer the limbs round to get there compaired to a 23" riser on a 68" limb, giving the same bow length but the limb evens the curves out to give better vertical stability.

torsional stability is one thing, but vertical is also an issue. We dont think this is a 70-72" limb question, it does applie to 68" bows aswell, in that a 23" riser with 72" limbs would provide a 70" bow with smoother draw, more forgiving vertically, but its not conventional to go that way, when the convention was setup pre-torsionally stiff limbs. 29" draw is 68" bow, but in what configeration... and if limbs are torsionally stiffer, why do folks still only go with older conventions?

[the_bowman]

Well, I have a set of Border limbs, XP10 Evolution....

Love em to bits.... shoot nice and smooth...and would always recommend them over any other limb...

Only problem is that I haven't used them for 6 years, and now taking up archery again, have that feeling that sooner or later, like any product used, something will go and that will be that...

However, as I shoot a Perris Whitehart riser, and Border no longer make the limbs for my bow..... could be stuck with a nice riser but no limbs and then have to totally change my set-up.!!

But that I guess is one of the prices to pay with advancement, that change is inevitable and things never stay the same. (shame though!)