Limb problems

[Dougal]

Hiya,

This is just a general enquiry about ML2 limbs in particular.

Has anyone out there experienced a breakage of a limb, specifically where the limb bolt is?
I'm curious to find out if its just me who has been unlucky?

[dangeneral]

Had a set of ML2 limbs for 4 years with thousands of shot no problems

[Dougal]

thats about the same as my limbs before they snapped......
See the EScoCo thread for piccies

[JohnK]

I know many people still shooting ML2s years after they were discontinued (at least 3 and a half years ago). Also, the Merlin-badged Border limbs are based on the ML2 shape and are doing absolutely fine.

All brands of limb are at risk of breakage; what matters is how the company behind it responds. At 4 years old the limbs are way out of warranty, but Border has an excellent reputation in that regard. Have you contacted Border? If so, what have they said? I would be willing to bet they'd offer you a discount on a new set of limbs, which is a sight more than nearly any other manufacturer would do.

[Dougal]

Yes my first port of call was to Border who promptly replied offerring a discount as you suggest.As my wife was paid off today I may have to wait before I can afford some more!
I wasn't trying to rubbish the limbs or Border, far from it.I was merely asking if anyone else has had any problems.I know that I didn't inspect the limbs every time I shot, and if you've seen the photos in another thread, you'll see that the top limb has a crack on both sides in the same place.Now am I really unlucky, or is there an unknown (as yet) fault with them?
I know three people who shoot ML2s, but Border made more than 4 sets.
If you have a set, will you have a close look before you shoot next time? Might save a bruise or two, and everyone else in the hall from c*****g themselves!
And since it happened ,I've spoken /been in contact with a good few experienced archers (and I've been shooting for nearly 20 years) and so far nobody has seen limbs break at that point.

[BorderBows]

This is our first set that we have seen that have snapped in that location.
We have had concerns about the ILF strenght in that area and have added re-enforcements at the time of the talisman golds. Looking at the Photo in the other thread, those limbs were made in november 2001.

Dougal, My question is, the way you started the thread looks like your trying to start a roumour. A more appropreate start would have been "how many people inspect their Kit". The reason im of this opinion is that you have this posted now in two threads, one that is devoted to your problem With "Limb Problems" as the title, and not the quality of the inspection. After 7 years you would check your gear more frequently as age is a killer for everything. Even after we at Border have offered a substantial discount on a set of limbs that are 7 years old.

Im sure that this kind of cracking would have appeared as a tiller change. Tiller doesnt change unless something is going wrong, or the bolts are moving.

Im also aware that bows can snap anywhere wood, metal or foams. Middle of the riser being one of the worst, though the window, in the corner of the limb pocket, and anywhere in the limb, from simple tip delaminations, limb delaminations, to total explosions. If its new to us, then why should there be such a news call. These limbs are very old, and we cannot be responsable for the care taken of these limbs in 7 years of ownership. Who knows whats happening to the materaials being used in current limb construction of any limb in 7 years of shooting.

We have offerd this discount to you, Without questioning the history of the limbs. Were they second hand, and did you by them from us...

What do you want us to do? We have offered a solution to a problem that we need not be responsable for, and in return you point the finger at our limbs in public, not once but twice.

Ask any sportsman, You should always check your kit. From car racing, to golf. Look at the warnings on carbon arrows. So why are we getting our product questioned, and not the dilegence of the archer at checking there gear, using our limbs as examples... We do suffer from breakages like all preformance products in all sports. We do do our best to support the archer who suffers.
We get unhappy when we are suporting a product that has been abused, or miss sold, like a 60" reiver to a german with a 31.5" draw length. But we do our best to get the guy on the right bow.
We have been known to fully warrenty 3 year old limbs when its a known problem... We do carry a "Crash Replacement scheam" to original owner purchase, which helps anyone with a accident, and a 1 year warrenty as standard. But we are a small family company with 10 guys. So we do our best

We even gave substantial discount to an american under the crash replacemnt who reversed his pickup over his week old Black Douglas, as a means of helping the guy.

We have given this crash replacement to a bow that wasnt covered by the crash replacement program, as we only started it a year ago. So we even upgrade the after care service by back dateing our customer service.

Not sure we warrent such high level public notification.

Sorry for the rant, it just seams a little unjust.

[Murray]

Calm down, he was only asking a fair and just question - is this a known problem, or not. The answer appears to be "it's not".

The two threads were related but Dougal rightly separated them - one is related to why he may have problems getting to iScoCo, the other is a relevant thread in your own forum asking for experienced feedback.

He did outline the good support he received from yourselves... and I don't think anyone is disagreeing with Border's customer care ethic, so I don't see any harm being done. And it IS an interesting break, not one I've seen before (most limbs appear to delaminate rather than snap at what you would consider might be the stronger part of the limb), so I found the images interesting.

IMO every limb manufacturer must put up with questions like "I heard limb xyz has been snapping - what have you heard".

But the sentiment is right

REGARDLESS of manufacture of equipment (whether it be Hoyt, Win&Win, Samick, whoever), check it on a regular basis for your own peace of mind.

[BorderBows]

Murry,
We do accept that questions will and can be raised freely. We have full moderation rights to this section and dont feel the need to moderate what our customers say by deleting threads. The question was raised for all to see, and the repercusions of some threads on these forums need to be seen by those who partake in them. The wording of the post could be viewed wrongly. It appears that i have viewed it that way. So others could do too. Reputations are a very fine line of good and bad.
We want our product to seen as not just a product, but a stack of continued support from us to the purchaser.
This was not portrayed in the original first post on this thread.
We are as honest as we can be about our problems, if we have never seen a problem, then we dont know about it. We see a heafty% of our failures some going back to the lightning, commodor etc. Dougal Never asked us if it was a known problem. So how can archers in the field be expected to know what our deepest darkest secrets are...
We do treat threads of this nature as "OUCH" when it relates to other manucfacturers. As they are very hard to address. Look at the Border limb fit issue thread, casting a question about our limb fit, putting off customers
It was hinted several years ago that it was our limbs that caused those limb bolts to snap. This issue still crops up. These observations last for years... This hinders sales, even though it wasnt our fault.


There was no reasoning in Dougals first post to indicate his reason for the question. Stating "I have heard" gives a good reason for the question. Asking "is there more" looks more like an invite.

If i didnt know the other side of the conversation, id think Dougal was in dispute with Border and was looking to find more disgruntled customers.

I have said my peice, and if there are any more broken ML2 Limb butts out there that have happened, then we will let them voice them freely. Im just asking not just Dougal but all archers, that the intention was not clear. Forums are a great place to find out infomation, but pints can be half full or half empty. Its the choice of wording that that changes the mood of the half pint.

hope this explains my view on my first post.

[Dougal]

I emailed Border direct on Tuesday night about 90 minutes after the incident.I got a reply from Sid at 0830 the next morning, which I didn't pick up til later on.FANTASTIC customer service.
I then posted the question on here on Wednesday evening.
And when I read the first reply that came in , I realised that there MAY be a certain ambiguity about my post, so I emailed you back to advise you of said post.
I've posted here before and praised your products too, I have no reason to try to discredit Border, if I did I wouldn't be planning to spend £350/£400 on my next set of limbs would I?
Yes you offered a discount,thank you.I have emailed you direct to explain my current inability to take up the offer.
The limbs may have been made in November 2001, I honestly cannot remember when I bought them from you, Sid and Ann, when I also bought a black Talisman riser.
Lets turn my original question around.
Have I done something or not done something that I should have to the limbs that has caused the cracks?
The bottom limb has snapped the top limb has cracks in the same position. So are there any theories as to what I have done /could have done to cause this?

As Murray pointed out I'm shooting in the iScoCo tomorrow and then the SAA champs on Sunday, with my old bow, a Scorpia with ,I believe, Border limbs.
I'll have the ML2s with me too, if anybody wants to see them.Maybe it will encourage other archers to check their kit regularly, not just take it apart and throw it in the kitcase.

[BorderBows]

There are two Sids here. My Dad answers the emails, i sit here on the forum, while being in the bowels of production...

We offered a discount as a means to help out. We are not sure what caused the fail as this is a first for us, and as i said, there are lots of pairs of ML2s out there. Many with many thousands of shots though them. Even some hard shot 72" limbs are still ok from what we have heard.

We at Border have an issue, when a public discussion differs form an private one.

We offered £105 off of TXGs (30% off the current list price of any replacement limb model ) as we are not sure exactly who was to blame, user error, or manufacturer/materials. The next question is, how long is a set of limbs expected to last? some of our limbs are 17 years old, and some people change every year. There is no set life span from what we can gather. The Problem lies in that a 7year old limb has broken, and we have little evidence to show whats gone wrong, other than the pictures. No history or log. What we can say is that a stringing accident can put small cracks in a limb, leading to limb core failure some considerable time later, as the cracks grow with every shot cycle untill failure. in this case we are not implying you caused the break as we really have no experince of this particular break. This is why we are offering help even on a limb thats well out of warrenty.

When a stringing accident happend and the failure some months later, the archer insists on "well it just snapped and i wasnt doing anything at the time" This is quite a bad situation as the customer has dismissed the stringing accident months before and can no longer remember it. Leading to what is the truth from the customers point of view as far as they can remember. And leads the manufacturer up a blind ally.
(this is a public thread, so this neednt apply to you Dougal)

We are just trying to add some balance to what appear to be a badly approached thread. We are happy to stand by this offer of discount untill your situation settles, as we stand by our product and the customers that choose it.

This is all on a case by case basis. When it is clear that its user neglect, then the offer of help is less. When its a case of genuine error, or unknown reason, we try to help as much as possible. When it is our fault then we replace even outside of warranty to within reason.

This is outside of warranty (1year) and as far as we know, unknown reason, so we are extending our arm of help as an expression of loyalty back to the archers who have chosen us. So is this offer of help worth questioning our limbs publicly, so we feel a need to expose our efforts to help. We just feel that if you want to avoid a bump on your head, inspect your kit. Not name and shame the brand, after what we hope was a extreamly generous offer.

When you buy a bow from us, you get the all the issues related to cutting edge design and technology but you also get a open ear to your questions, issues and problems.

Anything outside of the first year is unlikely to be either labour or materials.
Anything after 2 years is getting even more remote, but still possible. This goes for most products. This goes for Write down warranties which progressivly reduce over the period. Till the manufacturer accepts no responcability. Our crash replacment program extends for the life of the product to the original owner And covers all reasons for falure (this applies to direct customers only) (Dougal, your retrospectivly included in this one as are all directly pruchased bows)

hope this clarifies our intentions on this hicup and our commitment to those who choose us.