Wall or Valley? Confused.

[sambow]

Should a compound be shot of the wall or the valley. Larry Wise gives very strong arguments that it should be shot off the valley and never the wall.

The dilema I have is the valley has very a very low holding weight (assumed to be 15-20lbs) So if you shoot from the valley, how do you feel back tension with such light weight?

I currently draw the bow hard to the stops and then apply back tension immediately before releasing, hence I must be shooting off the wall. I am facing some difficulties at the moment with consistency and also I often find it hard to hold the pin on gold It always lies low and I find myself fighting to get it up. My dow has a single stop on the lower cam and I am wondering if drawing hard to the wall is tilting my bow down.

What do others do?

[ASW1973]

the idea of shooting out of the valley was popular before solid wall compounds but is now accepted to be obsolete.
if the dot is low all the time 1) your front shoulder is climbing or if you have good allignment and posture your draw length is too long

[NeilM]

Drawing up to the draw stop is not shooting off the wall. The wall is the area immediately before and after the valley and if you shoot from either the front or back wall you will get inconsistent acceleration of the arrow which means they will usually land high.

Shooting from the valley is not quite obsolete, it is just that most modern cams are designed in such a way as to stop within the valley, this is why cam timing and bow set up are so critical. A draw stop allows you to pull against the string and effectively not rotate the cam any further, and that is what you are pulling against.

[lancecpl247]

This is regarding your sight dropping low of centre. Does it do it all the time or when you have been shooting for a while. If it is fatique then I would agree that your shoulder is not set down. But if it is all the time then Sometimes adjusting your tiller can help. By experimenting with a slight difference in your top tiller can help to bring the sight up a little. But I am only talking slight changes and always mark your bow up before adjusting your tiller and always check your tiller before you shoot. This is not an exact science and obviously does not work for everyone and every bow but try it. A quarter turn should suffice to see if it does anything.

[Marcus26]

I highly recommend not reading Larry's books. He probably gives a good seminar and is a good coach and archer, however his Bow tuning book was grossly incorrect and I picked that up when I was 13*. It is now 20 years older than then and people still buy it. It should not be sold.
Read his Core Archery lately and that also contained major flaws. I don't like to critisize coaches of his standard, but I have found his books mislead. Not intentionally, but the findings on how things work just are not right.

As for your question.
The Wall will be in the valley. So that is not an issue.
The Wall is a movable peg designed to set a stopping position to pull against. It is not the same as the wall described in Larry's books which was the back slope of the cam, which comes about when over rotating the cam.

You should not 'feel' back tension. Back tension happens when you do not activate your arm muscles to hold the bow at full draw. You should not try and feel the back. That will lead to a massive amount of both tension and instability.
Don't pull so hard, just relax and lightly squeeze the release aid while maintaining the bow at full draw, use the wall as something to stabilize you.
My current bow has a holding weight of 8lb. I pull harder than that into the wall, but only about 14-15lb.
Here is a video of my shooting while showing how little tension is in my hand. I can swivel the release around easily without the bow jumping out.
YouTube - Demo of relaxed release hand




* I spent a year trying to tune my bow via his book. It didn't work and the conclusions were not logical. Eventually I ignored it and went with what made sense in my head. My scores improved rapidly. Now with what I have learnt in the last 5 years I know why it was wrong.

[sambow]

Originally Posted by Marcus26

I highly recommend not reading Larry's books. He probably gives a good seminar and is a good coach and archer, however his Bow tuning book was grossly incorrect and I picked that up when I was 13*. It is now 20 years older than then and people still buy it. It should not be sold.

I am glad you said that in a way, I find areas of the book very difficult to read/understand and there appears to be contradictions in some places. Is there any bow tuning book you can recommend?

On another note is there any good compound book you can recommend? If there is one thing I have always struggled to grasp it's back tension. I don't really know what to look for, whether I am using it or not and how to tell whether I am using it or not.

[emdrum]

Back tension is one of the hardest aspects of archery to master and, I always think, misleadingly named. It is so easy to think you are using back tension when actually you are not.

As an exercise, try this: ~

Without your bow, stand with your feet apart as if you are holding your bow in the fully drawn position. Breathe out slowly and then breathe in in one long slow breath. As you reach the point where your chest is fully inflated, your arms will move back slightly and your chest will push out while your shoulder blades move gently together. That is the kind of movement you are looking for.

Now, without the huge breath (still keep breathing, though, or you'll pass out) stand again and emulate that movement. Without pulling on your arms or shoulders, expand your chest and allow your shoulder blades to move together. You will hopefully feel your shoulders come back slightly in a quite natural way.

Now make a loop of rope of the appropriate draw length and twist it twice. This is a crude bow simulator. Get into the fully drawn position and then use the exercise above to practice tensioning the rope. Hint; if your arms start to shake or tremble you are probably using your arm muscles.

When you transfer this to your bow, shoot against a blank boss at close range and listen to how your body feels. When it feels right your body will let you know. Concentrate on replicating that feeling and with practice, it will come.

Back tension should feel easy and natural without excess strain on the muscles. Well executed it will feel almost like you didn't do anything at all.

That's the best I can describe it. I hope it helps.

Cheers

Mike

[sambow]

Originally Posted by emdrum

Back tension is one of the hardest aspects of archery to master and, I always think, misleadingly named. It is so easy to think you are using back tension when actually you are not.

As an exercise, try this: ~

Without your bow, stand with your feet apart as if you are holding your bow in the fully drawn position. Breathe out slowly and then breathe in in one long slow breath. As you reach the point where your chest is fully inflated, your arms will move back slightly and your chest will push out while your shoulder blades move gently together. That is the kind of movement you are looking for.

Now, without the huge breath (still keep breathing, though, or you'll pass out) stand again and emulate that movement. Without pulling on your arms or shoulders, expand your chest and allow your shoulder blades to move together. You will hopefully feel your shoulders come back slightly in a quite natural way.

Now make a loop of rope of the appropriate draw length and twist it twice. This is a crude bow simulator. Get into the fully drawn position and then use the exercise above to practice tensioning the rope. Hint; if your arms start to shake or tremble you are probably using your arm muscles.

When you transfer this to your bow, shoot against a blank boss at close range and listen to how your body feels. When it feels right your body will let you know. Concentrate on replicating that feeling and with practice, it will come.

Back tension should feel easy and natural without excess strain on the muscles. Well executed it will feel almost like you didn't do anything at all.

That's the best I can describe it. I hope it helps.

Cheers

Mike

Thanks Mike, thats an really interesting explanation. I am concious that its the one aspect of archery thats eluding me, but I could do with changing this because I am stuck around the 550 portsmouths at the moment and would like to do better.