Wild Shots

[Max]

OK – here’s one for you compound experts out there. I converted to compound from Recurve in December and have been doing OK. Groups getting better and loving it. Now in creeps a very strange phenomena which is crippling me and is getting worse – much worse. What I get is a totally uncontrolled wild release – so bad that I miss the boss completely at 20 yards. It is like a punch or a flinch, but is totally unstoppable and very violent. The only way I can describe it is like the nerve reflex you sometimes get in bed when suddenly your whole leg jerks in spasm. I have tried various release aids, to no avail, even stiffening the trigger and taking the trigger knob off completely.

I can’t ascribe this to target panic, (whatever that is) – I have no problem aiming or settling on the gold and can start the release motor running just fine – but every so often it is like being hit hard between the shoulders – a total surprise - I seem to have yanked the bow off my face and blown a shot wild.

Now, I don’t think I am letting the draw arm creep forward, I am putting tension into the shot by push/pull so I don’t think I am relaxing too much and the cams are snatching the sting. Is it possible this could be a totally subconscious trigger reflex and if so how do I fix it? The shots are so wild I dare not shoot at home, which rules out daily practice of any kind.

Is this a common reflex? Is it a kind of target panic, or is it something else? Anyone experienced anything similar?

[geoffretired]

Hi Max,
I think I had exactly the same problem you have described and at the same stage in my archery(a few months after changing from recurve to compound)
As you may know, I am in rehab for target Panic so I perhaps can lessen some of your anxieties.
Your problem happens when all is going well(apparently ) and sometimes there is a big flinch. I used to get high right arrows when it happened.
If we are talking the same symptoms here, then try this. Close range (5m)
get settled at full draw, on aim too, with the finger/thumb behind the trigger so it can't go off. Keep the finger/thumb behind the trigger but give the release aid body a sudden squeeze with the hand. Note what happens. Repeat a few more times and note what happens.Afterwards, send me a PM describing your findings. I'm being secretive on purpose, you'll see why after the PM arrives with me. I'll reply as soon as I can. I think you are in for a surprise; you'll shoot better after this is resolved, than you did before it started to take over.
All the best for now.
Geoff

[Max]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

) Keep the finger/thumb behind the trigger but give the release aid body a sudden squeeze with the hand. Note what happens. Repeat a few more times and note what happens.Afterwards, send me a PM describing your findings. I'm being secretive on purpose, you'll see why after the PM arrives with me. I'll reply as soon as I can. I think you are in for a surprise; you'll shoot better after this is resolved, than you did before it started to take over.
All the best for now.
Geoff

Thanks Geoff - will do. Hopefully, I can try this out early next week - I will PM you with the results - let's hope we are on to something. Either that or I am going crazy!

Cheers
Max

[greydog]

Sounds like you're anticipating the shot, but I'll wait and see what geoff has to say from your feedback

[Max]

Originally Posted by greydog

Sounds like you're anticipating the shot, but I'll wait and see what geoff has to say from your feedback

Yes - a bit of that (probably a lot!). Geoff has been a fantastic help on this - when I tried squeezing the release handle hard while aiming, I caught myself coming off the back stops just a little. Probably some instictive reaction from recurve shooting, where you pull through but relax the fingers to loose the string. The interesting thing was that to try this, I used my spare bow, which is a Hoyt Ultramag - it was handy at the time. This is the same basic specification as my Pro Elite (same limbs, same cams, draw weight and draw length), apart from the slightly longer axle length on the Pro.

I had no problems executing the shots with the Ultramag, although lack of back tension at the moment of release was probably a major weakness in my shot. However, when I tried the same experiment with the Pro Elite immediately after shooting the other bow, it was obvious there was something very odd about the let off and the valley. The valley was virtually non existent, and even a slight relaxation would allow the bow to snatch forward violently. Clearly my technique was being severely punished by the Pro Elite - the question was why?

I bought the Pro Elite second hand and had it re strung and re cabled. At the time it was noted that the lower draw length limit on the cams was 28" - probably just a little too long for me, as I was using a wrist release at the time. As part of the re cabling, some tricks were played with the cables to shorten the draw length slightly. This may possibly be the reason for the very short valley on the bow, or it may simply be the bow itself.

In the hands of an experienced shooter, it would never be a problem, but for a beginner it might not be the best bow to start on. The ironic thing is that having changed over to a tee-bar type release, I have set the cams to mid range and I could have got away with not shortening the draw length in this way.

So the question is, should I take the bow back to my local dealer and see if it is possible to do anything with the cables to make the valley a bit more defined and forgiving, or is such a tight valley a feature of this particular bow?

[geoffretired]

If I'm correct, lengthening cables decreases drawlength and vice versa. As far as I'm aware, the valley is not changed. Changes to cables or strings changes the position of the cams at rest. This changes the way the draw begins, leaving the end of the draw unchanged.

[Adam]

Altering the cables will not change the nature of the valley on a cam & 1/2 Hoyt.

Take a look at the draw length modules on the cams. My guess is that they will be set on probably A or B. On these cams all the modules to to alter the draw length is prevent the complete rotation of the cam, so if it's set towards the bottom of it's range the valley feels very short indeed. You really want to have them set on E or F to allow a full rotation.

Sounds like you may need a new, smaller set of cams. Unfortunately this will also mean new strings and cables. Personnally, I'd take the bow back tot he shop, explain the problem and ask them to help you sort it out. After all, they did sell it to you in the first place.

Adam

[Max]

Originally Posted by Adam

Altering the cables will not change the nature of the valley on a cam & 1/2 Hoyt.

Take a look at the draw length modules on the cams. My guess is that they will be set on probably A or B. On these cams all the modules to to alter the draw length is prevent the complete rotation of the cam, so if it's set towards the bottom of it's range the valley feels very short indeed. You really want to have them set on E or F to allow a full rotation.

Sounds like you may need a new, smaller set of cams. Unfortunately this will also mean new strings and cables. Personnally, I'd take the bow back tot he shop, explain the problem and ask them to help you sort it out. After all, they did sell it to you in the first place.

Adam

I think I'm on C at the moment, but thanks for the comment on how the Cam 1/2 works, especially how the rotation limit affects the valley. I actually got the bow from eBay on a bit of an impulse (why do I never learn!!!) and Lez at Aardvark Archery has helped me with the setup. I will call in and have a chat to see what might be done - Lez knows his stuff and if anyone can help, he can - if not it is not so much hardship as I have the Ultramag.

Cheers All

[Jerry Tee]

Just to clear up a point, do you shoot off the back wall or out of the valley?

[Max]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tee

Just to clear up a point, do you shoot off the back wall or out of the valley?

Off the Back Wall, Jerry (usually!). So far, the advice I have been given is to pull the bow hard against the stops. There seems very little valley with either of my Hoyt Cam 1/2 bows. My limited understanding is that some bow/cam systems have a valley where after the point of maximum let off, the draw weight increases again and on these systems the bow can be shot from various points in the valley. I have been led to understand that cams like the Hoyt Cam 1/2 don't actually exhibit a valley as such, because the cams come hard up against the stops before the weight increases again?