Cams; two questions...

[Effrum]

okay, heres something i was thinking about whilst wandering my round this morning (i'm a postman), this is all theory, i have a lot of crazy theories when it comes to archery kit and sometimes they work out, so i'm shopping this one out to people with some idea of what they are talking about.

1) What is the pro/cons of single or twin cams? as i understand it with a single cam there is no cam timing to worry about, they are more vicious and have a firmer wall at the back, this all sounds great for me, what are the disadvantages? general single vs. twin rants are more than welcome.

2) I have a Browning Rage, there is also a model called the Rage One, which is single cam, could i convert my bow to single cam by changing the cams only? would i need a new string or could i use the existing one? would i need to change the limbs? (making it not viable). If someone with knowledge of brownings could clarify this for me definitively it would be great, as i appreciate on high end bows a cam change means a limb change but the Rage is not a high end bow, ahem.

Hope you tech geniuses can fill me in on this one!

cheers

Effrum

[greydog]

1) Twin cams used to be faster by design than single cams, but that's a gap that's closing all the time, as shown by Mathews bows.
Twin cams used to be harder to keep in tune, but modern string materials like BCY 452 have solved that, and the string stretching problems single cams used to suffer from.
The back wall is more a result of design than whether it's a sinle or twin cam, there are lots of twin cams out there with aggressive draw force curves and solid back walls.
Twins cams need a bit more tuning, but do allow you to play around a bit with rest placement, single cams have less tunability by design, and the nock travel is usually designed to run level with the berger hole on the riser. Single cams don't need to be timed (it's an idler wheel at the top, not an eccentric so nothing to time them to) but they do have an optimum position.

In the long run, they will both perform as well as each other unless there's something specific you want from the bow ? (speed, tunability, smooth draw lots of let-off?)

2) Depends on the manufacturers cam and alot of other variables, but if you went from a single cam to a twin cam, your poundage would go up as they work slightly differently and from what I've seen a single cam needs a higher poundage limb for the equivalent poundage on a twin cam.......but I'm prepared to be corrected on that
I've seen bows converted over from one to the other before and you would need the cams, new strings and cables and most likely new limbs depending on what poundage you wanted.

[geoffretired]

Not sure about needing to change limbs, that's complicated by the shapes of the cams you have and the one you put in their place. What I can say is, the string and cables will need to be changed. The one cam string goes from bottom to top then on down to the bottom cam again so is roughly twice as long as a twin cam version. Also, the single cam has only one cable so it needs to be stronger than the two from a twin cam. I have converted bows like that before but it was not always successful as the poundage can be way too high or low when it is all fitted back together. Browning could tell you perhaps.

[Effrum]

I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of poundage to keep the same limbs, i have poundage to spare at the moment, might have to try and get hold of browning, badger them a bit. very helpful information there, thanks! anyone else got any information?

Effrum

[Marcus26]

Bit of poundage woudl likely be around 20-30# so it really isn't worth it. Cheaper and easier to sell the bow and buy a new one.

Pros (+) and Cons (-)
Twins
+ Can adjust timing and tune nock travel
- Can go out of time which will affect nock travel
+ Nice feel due to the even cams on each end
- You need to know what you are doing to keep them A1

Single
+ Nock travel can not be adjusted. So if correct, it stays correct
- not all single cams are the same. Some do not have good nock travel out of the box. Nothing you can do with those.
+ Easy to setup and maintain
- String stretch causes havoc due to the extra long string.

Hybrid (Cam 1/2)
+ Even out of time groups pretty well
- can go out of time which can affect nock travel on some models
+ feels like a twin cam to shoot
+ short strings and cables, easy to make

Binary
+ Twin cam system with no timing issues
+ all the positives from twin and single cams
- Only on Bowtechs (although I like Bowtechs)
+ Changing of cable length doesn't change nock travel straightness
+ Short strings and cables


Personally I would shoot
Binary
Mathews single cams (the best ones)
Hoyt Cam 1/2 (not the best ones, but I know their design well)

[pyroarch57]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Not sure about needing to change limbs, that's complicated by the shapes of the cams you have and the one you put in their place. What I can say is, the string and cables will need to be changed. The one cam string goes from bottom to top then on down to the bottom cam again so is roughly twice as long as a twin cam version. Also, the single cam has only one cable so it needs to be stronger than the two from a twin cam. I have converted bows like that before but it was not always successful as the poundage can be way too high or low when it is all fitted back together. Browning could tell you perhaps.

Geoff, i always look forward to reading your posts, you`re a very knowledgeable person, keep it up

[Effrum]

Hmm, further research into my particular situation is in order me feels, i can't seem to find it on the browning site; anyone know who the UK distributor is? as in the main one you would go to for parts and such?

Cheers for all the informative posts guys, i learnt my compound skills on a borrowed single cam 6 years ago, fond memories...

Effrum

[Effrum]

Righty, i have spoken to a few places, the conversion from twin cam to single cam only requires the string and cams, the limbs are the same for the Rage and the Rage One, crunch point is the whole thing would be about £90 and would take 4-6 weeks to get in stock, why its this long i have NO idea, even if the parts come from america i can't see why it would take that long, unless they are out of stock there or something, i dunno.

But at least now i know its possible, it will up the bow poundage about 5lbs over what it is now, so it will go from 55-65lbs to 60-70lbs, which is acceptable, i've just gotta decide if its worth the money now, maybe if i get a good paycheck in a few weeks, i do love the feel and action of single cam.

Or theres plan b, involving a credit card and a call to matthews...

Cheers for all the help guys!

Effrum

[whisky]

Effrum,
Have you considered ordering direct from USA if you know what you want/need. I'm sure that it would arrive quicker than the delivery times quoted by shops in the UK

[geoffretired]

It sounds like a long wait but it's good to know it is possible.
60-70lbs ?? That's ok as far as drawing the bow. There is the upper limit of 60lb for target shooting at competitions. I just thought you may not be able to adjust below 60lb to make it legal. It would be a pity to invest all that time and money to find you were restricted in its use. Just a thought.