New Compound

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm thinking well ahead here to next year, but would like to find out views on what make of compound or model to go for next. I have been looking at a Merlin Quest online although a lot of people seem to talk about or have hoyt bows. Looking for suggestions and what makes those suggestions good. Some of the sites mention let downs and give percentages - what do they mean? Also what do they mean by the bow being forgiving (of mistakes and how)?

Thanks

[Marcus26]

I would take a really good look at the following bows
Bowtech Allegiance VFT
Bowtech Old Glory (although may be called something else next year)
Bowtech Constitution

Mathews Switchback
Mathews LX
Mathews Conquest 3

Archery Reseach AR34 Ram Plus

The numbers are percentages are the poundages and letoffs.
For example:
50lb 28" @ 80% means that
The bow will wind up to 50lb
the draw length will be 28" (which is measured to the plunger hole then add 1.75")
80% means that at full draw your holding weight will be 80% of the peak weight.

Forgiving? This is an abused term that dates back to when people would make crap up to sound like they knew what they were talking about.
The 'theory' is that a bow with a high brace height will not miss by as much when you make a mistake because the arow isn't on the string for as long.
So the same 'experts' will claim that an 8" brace height is 'forgiving' and a 6" brace height is not.
However these same experts often fail to:
• Set their sights and rests up correctly to reduce the effects of torque
• Fail to take into account the draw length of the archer. This will effect the time on string. For example a 26" archer with a 6" brace height gets 20" of travel which a 30" archer with an 8" brace height gets 22" of travel, in effect is shooting a lower brace height,yet the same archer will insist his 8" brace height is more 'forgiving'.
• While they assume less time on the string is good, I would say it is bad because you are not directing teh arrow long enough.
• Speed loss. The amount of speed lost at 8" is HUGE and in the vast majority of cases those archers could have used that extra speed and gotten far more benifit from it.

Basically forgiving is when the arrows go where you want them to despite where you were aimed. Personally I would take a bow that went where I aimed instead.

[Jerry Tee]

What a lot of people mean when they say forgiving is tolerant. By this I means that when you make a bad loose for instance an intolerant bow will cause the arrow to impact further from the aiming point than a tolerant bow. I would respectfully sugest that until you have shot a compound off fingers you have very little experience in the field of tolerance. I have two Oneidas both fine bows but a world apart from each other in terms of diamensions and technology. the first is an old Eagle it has a 50% let off a string lenght 47.5 inches a brace height of around 8 inches and soft cams. Its is a very tolerant bow, yes it is slow not much faster than a 50 lb recurve with carbon limbs. About 250 fps, it is very pleasent to shoot so much so that one of the died in the wool recurve shooters at the my club had a go and with his first arrows off a strange bow and set up was able to shoot a 4 inch group at 60 yds.(off fingers). The second bow is a modern Oneida and is less tolerant shorter and a lot faster with hard cams. You have to pay alot more attention to your loose but when you do it is far more accurate than the old bow.
The speed loss of a longer bow with a higher brace height need not be as huge as has been sugested if you choose a Bowtech Constitution they claim a over 300 fps with that bow. For a 40" A to A bow with an 8" brace height.
Its all depends what you want to do . There is no substitute for shoot ing a bow and seeing if it suits your style.
Some more info on what you want to shoot would be helpful ,are you a finger shooter or release aid user?

[Marcus26]

I would suspect that a finger shooting bow will see some bows to be more forgiving because of the way the fingers cause the arrows to flex on release. A poor release will greatly change the way the arrow flexes as it leaves and chances are will impact the rest on a shorter brace heighted bow.
This however is not an issue for a release aid user as a correctly used release aid will give the same release everytime.
Therefore what a finger shooter may see as forgiving will not be for a release aid shooter.

The Long Axle to axle thing is simply left over from the old twin wheel days. The timing on a long axle bow is not as sensitive as it is on a short axle bow. However for a single cam or a binary cam this is not a concern because timing is always correct. Most of the top shooters in my area now use 33-36" axle to axle bows with great success.

[Jerry Tee]

I am sure that the older of my two bow is more tolerant. It perhapps comes down to those two words"correctly used". It begs the question,what happens if the release aid is not correctly used? Will a more tolerant bow displace the point of impact from the point of aim less than a non tolerant bow. Also do we all use a release aid 100% correctly all the time?

[Marcus26]

Thing is that you can not assume that a higher brace height and slower cams are automatically more tolerant than a faster setup.
Case in point #1
Spirals vs Cam 1/2.
The Cam 1/2 would be more 'forgiving', right? Not always. Because of the way the back wall is designed on the Cam 1/2 it is very very easy to not notice this cam being out of time. When it is you will get high shots (high gold indoors) that you shouldn't get. The Spirals have a longer draw stop and thus a harder wall, so you can feel straight away when it's out and fix it. Then the extra 12fps from the Spirals allows the use of a much heavier projectile in windy conditions which allows you to score more in tough conditions.
If a finger shooter is using a clicker this effect is minimal, however release shooters shooting off a wall this is a major concern.

Case in point #2
Brace Height
IF higher brace heights are more forgiving and thus will give you more points then why are people not buying bows with 9" brace heights? Fact is they are not and since bows have gotten shorter and lower in brace scores have improved greatly.
There is an optimal brace height for each person's draw length. Too high and the string will still be moving left-right when it lets go of the arrow on a bad release. It won't have time to straighten up. Also too high and it has not had a chance to guide the arrow very long, like having a short barrel on a rifle.
With fingers there is a left-right movement of the string, you tune your arrows to take this into account. If you change the rate of movement it won't shoot as well.
With release that left-right movement doesn't exist. If you release poor enough that it does exist then you were not aiming in the middle anyway and the shot placement will be random. You may hit the 10, but that's luck more than forgiveness.
The only real way to get left-right stuff with a release is to torque the bow, and the effect of that is determined by the rest and sight position, not the brace height.

Long Axle to Axle compounds are not wise with a release aid because your string lengths are alot longer. Even with materials like 452X there can be movement in the string. The longer the string the greater the movement. This is why it is best to avoid long axle to axle bows. Obviously finger shooters need to reduce pinch, however release shooters don't. So a release shooter must look at a shorter bow to reduce string length and vertical string movement on release, a hard wall with level nock travel, and optimising their rest and sight positions to reduce the effects of torque. After that a release shooter should shoot a high energey cam with stiff heavy arrows to counter the effects of wind drift and they will produce their best results. Brace height and axle length is not a factor for any of that.

[Jerry Tee]

Some good points in there ,case 1 due to the nature of Oneidas ( cams mounted on the riser and linked by steel cable rocking out board limbs) on the older bow I do use a clicker because it is difficult to set up a solid back wall on these older bows. I think I might try a clicker on the Pro Eagle as well. if your observations are correct then it might be better than a back wall. It should be possible as I am using a button and flipper rest on both bows. That is some times a problem with shooting limited compound, traditional wisdom is not readily available.

[Jerry Tee]

As is often the case I have come back for a good read. The point about string lenght and its effect on string movement on release,What are factors that cause this movent? Is it a difference in cams take up of the string?

[doubletop]

my eldest lad shoots a quest 35 from merlin and he loves it i also shoot a merlin lite storm 2 i get on well with it take a good look around i dont know where u are but the merlin archery centre is in loughboro leicestershire and they will be glad to help u

[Barry C]

I used to love merlin for their razor edged grip. how do the new wooden grips shoot?