longrod or not!

[sambow]

I have just started shooting compound and I wondered what peoples thoughts were on the use of a longrod.

When I first used a longrod on a recurve I was astonished at the improvement it made. Not only did I score better but it was noticeable that my aim was much steadier than with no rod.

I am finding the opposite on my compound bow. When I attach a longrod it becomes much harder to keep my aim steady than without one.

I think it may be becuase my compound is quite light and the holding weight is also quite light (37lbs peak draw weight at present so only holding about 15lbs). The lack of ridgidity I think is making the rod waver about. I also notice in the wind the rod tends to move me off target and I have never noticed that with recurve.

I realise that compound release quite a lot of energy and may "jar" the shot without some form of damping, but I wondered if there were any better forms of damping than a long rod?

[Jerry Tee]

What I think is happening here is that the natural frequency of the bow long rod combination is near that at which you make corrctions to the aim of the bow. So during a correction in aim the bow long rod stores some of the energy caused by the movment and when you stop the movment with the bow on target that energy is released which moves the bow again, hence the wobble.
There two things you can do about this firstly you can increase the weight you are holding by pulling into the back wall. make sure that the draw stops are correctly set for your draw lenght, then try to pull past the draw stops using back tension. this will raise the poundage you are holding at full draw
Next you can change the long rod for some thing stiffer. It sounds as if the rod you have is to floppy, see if you can borrow another stiffer long rod and give that a try, as a basic rule long rods for compounds are stiffer that recurves.

[ThePinkOne]

Originally Posted by sambow

I have just started shooting compound and I wondered what peoples thoughts were on the use of a longrod.

When I first used a longrod on a recurve I was astonished at the improvement it made. Not only did I score better but it was noticeable that my aim was much steadier than with no rod.

I am finding the opposite on my compound bow. When I attach a longrod it becomes much harder to keep my aim steady than without one.

I think it may be becuase my compound is quite light and the holding weight is also quite light (37lbs peak draw weight at present so only holding about 15lbs). The lack of ridgidity I think is making the rod waver about. I also notice in the wind the rod tends to move me off target and I have never noticed that with recurve.

I realise that compound release quite a lot of energy and may "jar" the shot without some form of damping, but I wondered if there were any better forms of damping than a long rod?

When I first switched to compound I thought the same.

Although I've had a 10" beiter on my Equalizer for a while, I've finally gotten some "proper" stabilizers. Now I have sorted my basic form out, it's worth it. So I spent half a day down at WAS to find out what worked for me. A main function of a long-rod on a compound is to help reduce torque (the big enemy on a short a-a compound) and it also helps stability at full draw- especially if you shoot back-tension style. I have decreased my let-off from 80% to 65% which also helps. Does the long-rod work? Yes. Certainly.

I have a rather long rod- 30" W&W HMC carbon rod with end-weight. I only have a DL of 26", so that is a fair length. Damping: choose the rod length carefully or you can accidentaly pick a resonant frequency which is rather uinsettling, if I use a 29" rod I get that. I also have a short (4") rod (actualyl a W&W extender with end-weight) on the left side to offset the sight unbalancing the bow, it's not much but makes it sit better on aim without a cant and no effort from my hand. Incidentally, if you want to see how much hand torque you have, shoot some bare shafts at short range- say 5m- and see how the tails impact. Any left/right tail impact likely due to hand torque particularly on a short a-a bow, and both grip in bow and hold/reference position consistency of release hand affect this (please don't ask me how I know this...). Compounds generaly use a low grip too, which can take some getting used to.

Maybe best thing is, drop the stabilizers off the compound, use a little short rod to get a forward tip if you want, and get the feel of shooting it well. Then try different stabilizers- not necessarily what you have on a R/C- and see how it feels.

P.

[whisky]

Originally Posted by ThePinkOne

A main function of a long-rod on a compound is to help reduce torque (the big enemy on a short a-a compound) and it also helps stability at full draw- especially if you shoot back-tension style. I have decreased my let-off from 80% to 65% which also helps. Does the long-rod work? Yes. Certainly.

I have a rather long rod- 30" W&W HMC carbon rod with end-weight. I only have a DL of 26", so that is a fair length. P.

Did you mean to suggest the long rod helps with torque - which I interpret as left or right movement at full draw. If so I'd be interested to learn how that may be so when it emerges from the bow back central? Would torque not be a function of hand placement and/or a bow which is heavily weighted left right - as in the case of a compound with a heavy sight/scope combination?

Would the longrod not help with dynamic and static balance of the bow at rest and full draw? A well balanced bow at full draw should 'sit' well through the shot. However, nobody is ever 'dead still' at full draw - it's just not possible, though I have noticed that archers newer to compound are less steady than experienced ones.

As you have found there is no need for such high let offs with target bows. Could not the high let off lead to a weaker shot through lower holding weight, less commitment to the shot and the bodies 'balance' at full draw against the bows stored/potential energy?

I don't think you mean too, but I take from your comment that the length of long rod is a function of draw length, but that is not so. Different types and makes of long rods should be tried to find those that are best for static balance and then hold best for dynamic balance when shot - which is what you 'sussed' out at WAS

[geoffretired]

Recurves and longrods are very different from compounds and longrods.
With a recurve, the holding weight plus the smooth increase in poundage gives a nice settled feel to the bow at full draw. You wobble as an archer but the longrod tends to stabilise you, as much as the bow , because you are so tightly joined as it were.
With a compound, the draw is very much up and down. The smoothness is difficult to achieve. At full draw the holding weight feels like zero and if the long rod starts wavering during the draw cycle, it becomes a horizontal pendulum. Once it starts to swing, it doesn't stop so quickly. It then shakes you and so it can continue.
Having a long, long rod can make matters worse, as can having the sort where all the weight is at the far end. Shorter may work better for you. Lighter may too, as the bow is not very powerful. I should try drawing the bow carefully so that as you draw, the long rod isn't given the chance to start swinging side to side. Borrow a shorter one if you can just to see what the differences are.

[pwiles1968]

Lots of Advice here already so i wont put too much in , IMO you definitely need a stabiliser on a compound, finding the right one for you and your bow will be trial and error but it will be worth it when you get it it will just feel right.

I am not familiar with the balance of the TM5 If you can get up to Merlin I am sure the guys will not mind helping you out trying a few different combinations of rod length and end weight.

[ThePinkOne]

Originally Posted by whisky

Did you mean to suggest the long rod helps with torque - which I interpret as left or right movement at full draw. If so I'd be interested to learn how that may be so when it emerges from the bow back central? Would torque not be a function of hand placement and/or a bow which is heavily weighted left right - as in the case of a compound with a heavy sight/scope combination?

Torque: i.e twisting the riser in the hand around the vertical axis. Rather than cant (twist around the horizontal axis) which is what you seem to describe and can be seen by the bubble moving left and right in the scope level. The cant is balanced with the little 4" on one side to offset the sight/scope assembly- so you do not need to push bow either way with hand. Both bow hand placement and release hand placement do effect torque, but the long-rod makes it more forgiving of not so perfect shots- some inertia to make it harder to twist and also I notice it settles things down in the draw cycle, althoguh the combination of a spring steel rest and evo release aid also helps train you into a smooth draw!

Originally Posted by whisky

Would the longrod not help with dynamic and static balance of the bow at rest and full draw? A well balanced bow at full draw should 'sit' well through the shot. However, nobody is ever 'dead still' at full draw - it's just not possible, though I have noticed that archers newer to compound are less steady than experienced ones.

Yes. Smooths it all out.

Originally Posted by whisky

As you have found there is no need for such high let offs with target bows. Could not the high let off lead to a weaker shot through lower holding weight, less commitment to the shot and the bodies 'balance' at full draw against the bows stored/potential energy?

No, it's more that the lower holding weight makes it easier to torque the bow. Although a lower holding weight CAN lead to what you describe it need not- especially if you shoot an evo or similar. I have to find a balance- with upper spine damage the let-off is what enables me to shoot in the first place....

Originally Posted by whisky

I don't think you mean too, but I take from your comment that the length of long rod is a function of draw length, but that is not so. Different types and makes of long rods should be tried to find those that are best for static balance and then hold best for dynamic balance when shot - which is what you 'sussed' out at WAS

I was always told a good starting length for a long-rod is your DL or arrow length. But that was a r/c thing of course.

P.