Arrow spine

Hi Tom,

I need all the psychological edge I can get! Archery is all about being comfortable in every respect. I'm sure the tripples are very good, but they don't seem any better or worse than the Navigator, so I don't see any point is straying from Easton. f they were considerably cheaper, well then we are talking.

Cheers

Rich

[tel]

Sorry to leave it so open-ended guys - I was on my way out to the club X-mas do! (don't ask).

I'm not for or against this letter/opinion - I myself have been seriously considering triples as my next serious purchase - just though it was worth a mention.

Its a bit too much to copy here, but Issue 34 page 40.

Basically the author of the letter says that Bow's own tests only gave results of the variation in a given shaft (+/- 0.004") - his tests using several sources gave results up to ten times that between different shafts. Having said that he goes on to say he still shoots them, but wouldn't want to replace a broken one - pretty much the same as everyone else who has a 'matched' set then reallly.....

[Marcus26]

When will these archery myths die out?

FYI

Point weight doesn't effect spine. For outdoor target ALWAYS shoot the heaviest point weight you can.
FPS means squat, but high energy is good. Go the heaviest thinnest arrow you can.
Spine means bugger all on a compound, when in doubt, go stiff.


So many people make decisions on their compound gear with recurve thinking. Not good.

Go with 480 Navs or 400 Triples or X10's. Anything else is throwing points away.

Hi Marcus,

Oh no, not more conflicting information! The archey world is full of opinion and conflict, who is right, who is wrong? Give me evidence to prove your words, if that's OK? Other than that, are you saying, if in doubt go stiff with a heavy point. If so why doesn't every one do this?

Confused of Cleckheaton

Rich

[GeoffT]

Listen to Marcus everybody....quite refreshing to hear some sense talked about compound arrows.

My local archery shop still suggests bare shaft shooting when choosing compound arrows.........

If you set up your centre shot correctly then I agree with Marcus........no paradox.......no problem with spine. I agree stiff is better than weak. Take a look at the extremes a broom handle (very stiff) would at least go in the correct direction, whereas a piece of string (very weak) wouldn't.:icon_eek:

Listen to Marcus.....you only have to look at his league scores to know that he know a bit about compound archery

OK Geoff,

I will listen to Marcus. I am come to teh conclusion weak arrows are no good out of a compound, and arrow speed is not as important as thin and heavy.

Have a

[Rik]

Originally Posted by rgsphoto

OK Geoff,

I will listen to Marcus. I am come to teh conclusion weak arrows are no good out of a compound, and arrow speed is not as important as thin and heavy.

Have a

I think the point is that with a recurve/finger release; arrows bend. With a compound, set on centre-shot, and (recommended) shooting with a d-loop, and even a drop away rest, there's precious little to bend a shaft - and you don't need to worry about clearance. It makes a lot of the arrow selection business just evaporate. Never mind what the charts say. Arrow matching? Match to what? With a recurve it's all about clearance...

I sent an enquiry to Alternative archery, here is the reply:-

Thank you for your Arrow Specification enquiry. The recommended spine/size for your setup is... ----------------------- Cartel Triple: 700 ----------------------- Based upon the following submission... Bow: Bowman Accu-Riser Draw Length: 28 inches True Arrow Length: 25 inches Peak Weight: 56 lbs Cam/Wheel: twin, hard ( fast ) Release type: release-aid ----------------------- DISCLAIMER: This service merely acts as a guide. Our recommendations are based upon many years of experience

Very odd 700 spine?????? Marcus, you sugest a 380. This sort of conflicting information baffles me. I need a beer

I'm going to buy the Navigator 480's with 120 gn points anyway, the spine calculation on the tripple seems too inconsistent. It's like they have re-invented spine charts to suit them.

Cheers
Rich

[Rik]

Originally Posted by rgsphoto

I sent an enquiry to Alternative archery, here is the reply:-

Thank you for your Arrow Specification enquiry. The recommended spine/size for your setup is... ----------------------- Cartel Triple: 700 ----------------------- Based upon the following submission... Bow: Bowman Accu-Riser Draw Length: 28 inches True Arrow Length: 25 inches Peak Weight: 56 lbs Cam/Wheel: twin, hard ( fast ) Release type: release-aid ----------------------- DISCLAIMER: This service merely acts as a guide. Our recommendations are based upon many years of experience

Very odd 700 spine?????? Marcus, you sugest a 380. This sort of conflicting information baffles me. I need a beer

I'm going to buy the Navigator 480's with 120 gn points anyway, the spine calculation on the tripple seems too inconsistent. It's like they have re-invented spine charts to suit them.

Cheers
Rich

I couldn't say whether it's odd or not. I don't know the definition of spine Cartel are using - it's not the Easton one, and it's certainly not the rubbish published on the ASS website (that method can't give the spine numbers given on the Cartel charts - stiffer arrows would have larger numbers not smaller ones!).

So you can't really compare "700" with "480" the numbers don't mean the same thing (like saying 700 mm compared to 480 inches... 700 is a bigger number but 480 is the larger length) you need a basis for comparison.

That said, I've seen data which suggest that a 700 Triple is in a similar stiffness range to a 610 Nav...

[Marcus26]

Thanks for the support Geoff. I'm still learning this game but have been taught alot of this by guys smarter and better than me. For years I would hear about bareshaft, paper tuning, changing point weight to adjust spine etc etc and it just never worked for me. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong, but since I have started learning about the mechanics and physics of it all from engineers it's all starting to make sense.

Rik is spot on. Paradox doesn't happen with a compound bow with level nock travel, yet 'experts' will tell you to look for left-right tears in paper or left-right bareshafts. Sorry, doesn't make sense.
You will get vertical flexing if your nock travel isn't level, however adjusting the nocking point fixes this easily.
Recurve spine matching to bow weight is everything.

Point weight and Spine.
Interestingly enough the length of the insert will have an effect, but not the point weight. 2 points of the same insert length but different weights will have the same spine.

I think 480 Navs will be OK, I think you could go stiffer, but they will work fine. They will drift more than a 430 Nav and more than a Triple which should be the determining factor to arrow selection for outdoor target.
Heavy is good
Thin is best
If you do go Triples then go the 400's. My wife won the Australian Nationals shooting 400 Triples at 26" 60lb (1374 FITA). The charts say she should shoot 600's. No thanks.

Cartel vs Easton spine
Easto spine is based on the deflection amount of the shaft with a 1.lb weight (I think), while Cartel is based on teh amount of weight required to bend the shaft a certain amount. They are not interchangable. Someone on Saggi measured the Cartel spines using Easton's method and that's a good guide.