new archers in our club.A sign of the times ??

[moo-mop]

I don't think a high beginner drop out is anything to worry about too much. When I was young I tried loads of different sports in the equivalent of beginner courses - horse riding, sailing, rugby, canoeing, fencing, judo - of course I didn't stick with all of them!
What you've got to remember if someone doesn't stay after a beginner course or after a few years it doesn't mean they haven't got anything out of it. The best part of learning something new is when you are beginning as that is the bit you rapidly improve at. This is fun, even if the later commitment isn't for you. I encourage anybody to try and take up a new thing - doesn't have to be sport as it makes life so much more interesting.
Of course I get frustrated with GNAS coaches mustn't interfere unless asked policy - when you see those straight of beginner course so obviously struggling - and I am all for improver coaching. However, that would not stop a lot of people leaving.

[jules]

Originally Posted by ben_e71

I am a little concerned by this - I'm sure you don't mean it to be but it does come over a little superior and it isn't the first time I've heard this on this forum. As a beginner myself I think I can talk from a point of view. MY friend and I have both just finished our beginners course. At the start I went 'cause I had tried archery a few times and wanted to try some more to see if I wanted to invest considerable amounts of my hard earned to join a club (about £75) and another £200-300 to buy some kit. My mate came along cause I persuaded him to - he had never shot before and was intrigued. As it happens we both loved it and are looking to join a club (not necessarily the one we did our course at either - they happenned to be the only ones running a course at the time). But he wavered for a bit as did I. At the end of the day the club that did our course got £50 quid out of us for 6 hours work so surely everyone is a winner. Of course it is frustrating when people don't convert after a course but there again isn't a course just that a chance to try without commitment.

IN addition, the course is a chance to try out the ambiance of the club and its approach to training and this every club won't fit everyone.

It is a little disappointing to hear that you would take a course at one club and then join a different one. We run a couple of beginners courses each year. The members give up a lot of their own time, and opportunity to shoot, to run theses courses which are designed to give an introduction to archery and help to boost the club numbers. The members get nothing in return, so no ,not everyone is a winner. Obviously no one can make you join a particular club, you might not like what they have to offer, but to cynically take advantage of one club to get into another does make me a little sad.

[napolienne]

Originally Posted by ben_e71

At the end of the day the club that did our course got £50 quid out of us for 6 hours work so surely everyone is a winner.

Ben, the economic rate for skilled tuition is £20-£25 per hour (for any sport) - so £120-£150 quid for a six hour course. Once you've deducted equipment costs etc from that £50 the club will be left with about £40 per person, which will be just enough to keep its head above water. Furthermore, that six hours of tuition you got had to be planned, bows and range set up and put away after you'd left. Fair enough if the club you wanted to join didn't have a course running - we do train people who then join other clubs at OA (one example is IMPAs son), but don't imagine that the club doing the training is making a fortune out of the exercise!

[John (OSF)]

Timely thread this for me as I'm leaving archery after about 6 years.This summer I was foolish enough to persevere with advice that didn't work for me and I know how much time and effort it's going to take to get back 'into it'.
I'm self-employed I only have limited free time available and have reluctantly decided to change to something that doesn't involve so much 'head-time'

I'm only posting this to add a voice to the archers that have been broken and discouraged by trusting poor quality advice and leave archery without a word.Some of their departures can covered up by the use of the word burnout as that transfers all the blame to them and lets things carry on as before

On my way out the door the only thing I can think of saying to improve things is, when archers ask for advice please ensure the person giving it knows what their talking about and cares for any consequences their actions will have on you, and above all check that their not putting forward personal theories as fact.

To say that society is at fault and nobody wants to put the 'time in' is simply not true.I've met the most poisonous people imaginable masquerading as 'community minded and trustworthy' during my time in archery and they couldn't stop me shooting, all it took was a season of the wrong advice.

[Nightimer]

Our club runs beginners courses throughout the year(we have outdoor and indoor facilities).
We gain a few members from each course.
They join the club then disappear!!
The end result is that we have about 80 members on the books and of those I have seen only about 15 shooting.
Sunday, the field is almost deserted .
I have been a member of my club for over 20years and in the early years the club (before I went over to compound) could muster at least 6 MB archers.
Now we have one recurve MB and one compound MB.
A sad state of affairs.
How to fix it?
I haven't got a clue,it feels like we are a sausage factory turning out beginners and putting the cash in the bank.
It does not bode well for archery if this trend continues.

Nightimer

[HOTHOUSEDOG]

Originally Posted by jules

It is a little disappointing to hear that you would take a course at one club and then join a different one. We run a couple of beginners courses each year. The members give up a lot of their own time, and opportunity to shoot, to run theses courses which are designed to give an introduction to archery and help to boost the club numbers. The members get nothing in return, so no ,not everyone is a winner. Obviously no one can make you join a particular club, you might not like what they have to offer, but to cynically take advantage of one club to get into another does make me a little sad.

Whilst i understand the obvious frustrations for the club members who so kindly invest their time in newbies for them to leave for another club; how does a beginner with no experience of organised archery know if a club will suit them? From what i have read there is some diversity in attitude, approch and atmosphere for club to club. As someone who has yet to join a club or do a course ( i know, I know i will soon!) how do i choose? Do clubs allow guests with no formal training to attend and shoot? And if i am not happy should i feel obliged to stay for a while? .
I don't know any other archers except my mate and we started together 6 mnths ago. We stump shoot on his land and target shoot in the farmers field next door (thanks farmer Jim!)

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by John (OSF)

On my way out the door the only thing I can think of saying to improve things is, when archers ask for advice please ensure the person giving it knows what their talking about and cares for any consequences their actions will have on you, and above all check that their not putting forward personal theories as fact.

I've had plenty of wrong advice in my time and yes wouldn't the world be prefect if there was great coaching.
I dropped out of archery for 3 years when I was getting nowhere with it BUT the responsibility for filtering advice rests with the archer as well as the coach and GNAS's coaching system. I listened to many coaches but only implemented what I agreed with too. If I was to have someone who was my personal coach (I never have) then I would make sure I could trust them in advance.

[Rhys]

Originally Posted by Thunk

I'm seriously gobsmacked at the lack of formal coaching ( or 'instruction' if you prefer) in this sport. We make people do a beginners course, and thereafter make the required smiley faces and welcoming noises when they turn up at the club, but that's not enough. People learn quite a lot on a beginners course, and one of the biggest things they learn is how much they don't know. It's OK for them to do the course and then shoot with club equipment for a while after, but they can see the standard of experienced archers, racking up good scores at 90 and 100 metres. What they don't see is any structured way to get from where they are to where they want to be. Is it any surprise that they become despondent and give up?

We need GNAS-sanctioned 'improvers' courses, and people should finish their beginners course knowing that in the ordinary course of events they will have a place on a course to take them up a level in about three months time. We need four or five levels like this, so that the courses are seen as 'stepping stones' to the ultimate goal.

There will of course be those who don't want to be competitive and are happy just plugging away at short-distance targets. That's fine, but the onus should be on them to decline a place on a course rather than for their competitive-minded brethren to go looking for one.

Or am I asking for the moon?

Ok I'll draw examples from two clubs i've visited recently in my area.
Club A: Small membership, a group of people in charge who like to do all the work and moan when no-one else turns up (despite not telling anyone) Now i helped at this beginners course and i was appalled, over the course i would say they got some instruction on day 1, with the rest of the duration just being watched by the club members who were just chatting amongst themselves. After 6 sessions they were still all shooting at 10m and not particularly well.
After this new members generally receive no instruction unless club coaches are pestered. I had two people asking if they could join my uni club as i seemed to be the only person prepared to do some teaching.
Unsurprisingly i don't think they even took on a single member from that course and if i'd have paid £25 for it I'd have been disappointed!

Club B: Huge membership, enough so that my and a few uni friends could barely fit in. I was amazed at the organization on the day, with targets set out at 18/25m with appropriate faces based on the tournaments individuals were going to. I was just getting back in to shooting after a break and within minutes one of the club coaches had given me some advice and asked if I'd like to come to the Sunday coaching session. A range of people from all levels were at the sunday session getting personal advice and some demo's on string making etc.

Now i don't think that the membership at these clubs could be unrelated to the way they were run. I'm not saying that all clubs who struggle are like club A, but people should be proactive in taking care of their beginners. If they are struggling and getting depressed at lack of results, they'll just stop turning up one week. Obviously as with any sport some people get hooked at the start and realise it isnt for them afterall, but I really think it helps if there is good communication between the organisers, coaches and members. Don't do things behind closed doors, DO use email and other forms of communication to keep in touch, make sure you know how all your beginners are getting on!

[John (OSF)]

Originally Posted by moo-mop

I've had plenty of wrong advice in my time and yes wouldn't the world be prefect if there was great coaching.
I dropped out of archery for 3 years when I was getting nowhere with it BUT the responsibility for filtering advice rests with the archer as well as the coach and GNAS's coaching system. I listened to many coaches but only implemented what I agreed with too. If I was to have someone who was my personal coach (I never have) then I would make sure I could trust them in advance.

Good for you, I fail to see your point unless it's to say that you overcame all the obstacles and wannabee coaches to shoot better by your own merit.
My post was about why I (and probably many others) leave, and not about how you overcame all the odds etc (but well done anyway, good for you )

[ben_e71]

Originally Posted by jules

It is a little disappointing to hear that you would take a course at one club and then join a different one. We run a couple of beginners courses each year. The members give up a lot of their own time, and opportunity to shoot, to run theses courses which are designed to give an introduction to archery and help to boost the club numbers. The members get nothing in return, so no ,not everyone is a winner. Obviously no one can make you join a particular club, you might not like what they have to offer, but to cynically take advantage of one club to get into another does make me a little sad.

Sorry I obviously didn't explain very well in my brevity. I looked for local clubs there are two. One ran a course the other not until next year. I attended the one this year as by next year I may not be interested and you cannot shoot without doing the course is the message I was universally being given. The beginner's course was good but also lead me to believe through various things that perhaps this isn't the club for me. So I am now looking at alternatives. Surely that's at least part fo the point fo a beginner's course. I could have joined the one I took the course at but during the course I found out they shoot at times that aren't as suitable for me, I felt that their approach to coaching wouldn't suit my style of learning, I prefer the setup of venues elsewhere. As for the point on coaching at £25 per hour for six hours vs £25 for a beginners course. Yes I agree if I had had 121 coaching for the siox hours but there were 16 of us and most of us were handled my members not necessarily coaches.