Beiter Nocks. Do they shrink when it is cold(er)?

[King Custard]

Its nice now to see that we have some real figures to back up the theory/claim and it does seem to be the case THAT NOCKS VARY DUE TO TEMPERATURE CHANGE! thanks for all the time you guys have shared with everyone- most interesting!

But - thinking 'material physics' - coupled with the fact that the contraction difference is very small......is it not the case that every material will respond with some degree of variance? - that all nocks will do the same?- that all archers will experience the same disadvantage?
And that we'd really need Robin Hood or someone capable of shooting consistent "six RobinHood Ends" to Really take this theory into practice?

I agree that any worry or concern should be dealt with, checked through, validated or dismissed as appropriate-and hats off to those who have done the work - but in the light of these mic tests..isn't this going to end up as another inescapable micro variance in matching one arrow to another?

Or more precisely to be absolutely certain, top archers are going to have to measure and grade their nocks at a range of temperatures before using them........and thats fine for those who want to do it.

GOD forbid though - that it occurs that two arrows collide on the boss - and we are then left wondering "did that nock get a wallop?-it looks ok - but is it at all changed?.........and the elitist perfectionist finds himself swapping nock after nock from a prechecked bag- just in case there may be a teeny displacement of the nock 'prongs' or mic'ing up his nocks after every good group!

I think - personally- with hindsight that the concern has thus been proved through facts/figures to be an overthought niggle, ultimately an unsolvable issue given the known laws of the universe- and the fact that virtally no-one is that good that its gonna make a bugger all of a heap of a difference.

well-Other than to give bieter nock users anxiety attacks on the shot and night terrors before a big tournament!
And if some nocks fit slightly looser into the shaft? So what?- give 'em a light nip with a pair of pliers at the end of the inserted portion....and be done with it - It's not a perfect world- and the ten ring Really is the size of a saucer, the nine ring like a dinner plate!

I'd like to draw attention that I posted this 'nip 'em' idea at the beginning of the thread...(go me!) and yet was still openminded enough to consider that just maybe it's worth worrying about.
For me it isn't - and I'm going to dismiss it from recall rather than 'worry' everytime that the ambient air temperature drops a degree

I for one am going to add a flash card to the pack of goal cards I use...it reads:
TRUST MY BIETER NOCKS- THERE IS NO BETTER
slotted in just behind the one that reads:
I CAN AND WILL EXCEED EVEN MY OWN REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS


O.B. Hi- Respectfully - I'd love to shoot at your level now, I will in time, - but I aint gonna get there by worrying over 0.001 of a mm. Your nock/string fit is more likely to be caused by shooting your own nocks!
At that my friend is where you leave me 'bottle green with envy"!

[Old Bloke]

Hi K.C.,

I concur with everything you have said. When I started the thread it was because, once again having come back to the sport to shoot competitively, I have had an issue with beiter nocks, as I did when I first shot them in the early 1980's, shooting with them in the 1990's in the G.B. team and now. I have since the 1990's put dental floss with the nock to trap the nock in the arrow but I still feel that there are times when the nocks are harder to push onto the string. My diaries throughout those times listed above also mention this *issue*. Last week, one evening got pretty cold and with the arrows it was quite noticable that extra effort was needed to push the nock onto the string and a much louder *click* was heard when pushed onto the string. Once again, I stood there thinking, *am I imagining this again?* But then of the six arrows shot TWO nocks, despite being fixed into the arrow with dental floss came out of the arrow when shot. It was then I came to the final conclusion that I was not imagining it and that I would ask tentatively on this forum if anyone else had observed issues of a similar nature concerning the nocks.
Now, by taking what I saw and believe in by keeping records, if and once again I say *if* the nocks are getting tighter to the string in cool conditions or looser in hotter, then what effect is it having on consistancy when an archer shoots? Just how *tight* should a nock be? Could it be that a simple thing like an overtight nock is keeping the performance of an archer below par? Is this just one of the reasons why they are good one day and poor the next?
I accept that I'm looking at my equipment to the *n*th degree, but then that has probably helped me win all but one of the National titles of all of the current U.K. archery associations in recurve archery. I also accept that for most, they are not interested in shooting to the *n*th degree, but many of these archers are the first to ask for help when things aren't goindg too well or worse still because of their erratic performances drop out of the sport because they *can't get on with it* despite spending many hours and pounds stirling on the sport. The loss of these people to archery could be as simple as *your nocks are too tight*. Despite my reservations concerning Beiter nocks, because of their unique engineering, I still want to use them as they are the best. But if there is a side issue to using them, then I'll have to address that side issue and so should everyone else shouldn't they? To do nothing is not doing themselves a favour at whatever level they shoot at or wish to shoot at.
Anyway, I have raised what I think is an issue concerning the nocks and it is for archers who have read the thread to decide what course of action is required. I for one will continue to look at the equipment we use, including that which I make, and using my experience, judge accordingly. I think I have said all I can on this thread, ultimately it will be the archers who will decided what/which is best for them.

[Murray]

It's all good stuff OB. Unfortunately, 99% of the archers on the board are probably not good enough to notice the variation (me included) - I've shot all my PBs in reasonably nice weather, but that's probably more to do with being warm and comfortable personally (and not wearing bulky clothing) rather than my nocks being warm and comfortable - I think the human factor has BY FAR the largest impact on any such variations for 99%.

But it WOULD be interesting for someone who is an elite competitor (GMB preferrably) to take some cold nocks and some warm nocks and shoot them side by side and thus give us some empirical evidence of the difference experienced in terms of group spread, group height, etc.

[BowSurfer]

Originally Posted by inthezone

As Suggested I have done a measurement survey on a packet of Beiter in / out hunter nocks

Nocks are New Taken at random from a selection of packets in my possession they are of recent manufacture and do not suffer from ageing or UV exposure they have been kept in a sealed packet as from Beiters all dimensions are in millimeters to the 3rd decimal place 0.001mm is a very small dimension a cigarette paper is approximately 0.01mm

Nock Number______Diameter @ 20c___________Diameter@ 3c
1..............................3,226.............. ..............3.226
2..............................3.226.............. ..............3.226
3..............................3.227.............. ..............3.227
4..............................3.227.............. ..............3.220
5..............................3.227.............. ..............3.221
6..............................3.227.............. ..............3.225
7..............................3.227.............. ..............3.225
8..............................3.227.............. ..............3.228
8..............................3.227.............. ..............3.225
9..............................3.227.............. ..............3.225
10............................3.227............... .............3.223
11............................3.224............... .............3.223
12............................3.226............... .............3.224

I Am leaving to you to draw your own conclusions, there could be several theories that will fit this situation of arrow shaft / nock transitional fit you just need to look at the BS standards on limits and fits to see how difficult it is to produce a decent light interference fit

Excellent work! However, you do not say just which dimension you are measuring. From the figures I guess it is the diameter of the string hole (dimension A on Beiter's data sheet) for a #3 nockbed. However, the crucial dimension from a performance point of view is the width of the constriction just behind the hole which is the part that has to 'let go' of the string (Dimesion B, 2.7mm for a #3 nockbed). Admittedly this is more difficult to measure, but I do not believe that it is a simple relationship to the expansion coefficient of the material but has far more to do with the detailed geometry of the nock.

[grantwomack]

Originally Posted by Murray

It's all good stuff OB. Unfortunately, 99% of the archers on the board are probably not good enough to notice the variation (me included) - I've shot all my PBs in reasonably nice weather, but that's probably more to do with being warm and comfortable personally (and not wearing bulky clothing) rather than my nocks being warm and comfortable - I think the human factor has BY FAR the largest impact on any such variations for 99%.

But it WOULD be interesting for someone who is an elite competitor (GMB preferrably) to take some cold nocks and some warm nocks and shoot them side by side and thus give us some empirical evidence of the difference experienced in terms of group spread, group height, etc.

Unfortunately, that would be nearly impossible to get accurate data from, since cooling ONLY the nocks would be nigh on impossible. But I highly doubt there would be much difference. Anyway, the cold-nocked arrows would probably still group together. That's why a sight has windage and height adjustments!
I've had problems with Beiter nocks being too tight or too loose, but it is always consistently... eg. my 19/2 nocks I have in my indoor arrows are all too loose - that's where cling film comes in handy.
I dare say that the loose/tight fitting of nocks due to temperature will be much more to do with the string or arrows expanding/contracting.

[King Custard]

Five star thinking- and an immaculate approach to straining every bit of success possible from equipment!

Old addage :
God grant me the courage to change the things I can,
the *something* to accept the things I cant ,
and the wisdom to know the difference...
comes to mind.

No way am i suggesting that you are lacking in any of the above qualities BTW!
The need to protect your head (or your mental processes) and your 'belief' may be on a knife edge right now regarding nocks (me too for that matter!)- and I wonder that if:

1)sticking to the bieter nocking point,
2)re-serving your string/s and applying some water repellent to the servings to minimize any changes due to moisture content of the serving,
3)changing your whole set of nocks at 'practical' intervals...ensuring a tight fit into the shafts....perhaps mic'ing the 'prongs' up for consistency as they come from the packet

...May be the nearest practical ideal that anyone can achieve with todays materials and manufacture, and that we should rest - assured that we have done whatever we possibly and realistically can to attend to this apparent incongruency..... what do you think?

Far from dismissing environmental effects on equipment, which certainly affects materials and scores ( and even the mood, outlook and expectations of an archer), I think that , so long as your arrow is holding together intact from one end of the range to the other without change ( ie:nocks not coming loose) we are going to have to accept that the effects of the weather are something we cannot completely negate.

Losing archers, old and new, due to them not being able to find a 'day to day-week to week' consistency also is a problem that could be addressed in their early exploitations into archery and their mental outlook from there on ----

-from conception on - each and every cell in the bodies we inhabit is 'somewhere between perfection and ...well... death and/or replacement' and each at a differring stage, alternating...therefore ultimately perfect consistency is beyond the humanly physical capacity to attain.

That is the most exciting challenge of archery, the pursuit of the ultimately unattainable- and the knowledge that no man -nor woman- has ever reached the peak of the mountain that we are all climbing........and yet you, we, (I even) could get the closest, the highest, the furthest...against all the odds, that nature and the universe likes to adorn itself with in the physical realm, and the limitations it pretends are insurmountable in the 'non physical' realm -(in our heads).
Contending with nature ultimately depletes the ability to engage the empyrean realm....

Dont do it - it'll send you potty!
I know from experience lol