So, what is a good shot like?

[geoffretired]

After a few months or a year in archery, the archer is starting to get used to what they are doing.
Then comes the time when they say something like this;"I keep getting misses but I don't know what I'm doing wrong."
Sometimes the answer is fairly easy to explain. "Your draw length keeps changing. Your references are not the same each time."
Sometimes it is less easy to explain, even though the cause can be seen.
One cause starts in that instant between the string beginning to leave the fingers and the arrow clearing the bow.The time of the release/follow through.
When things happen then, that vary from shot to shot, it is difficult for the archer to sense any differences. If they do sense differences, it seems difficult to put into words. Words that could give them a way of improving the performance.
I do try to explain, and give practical demonstrations of what I think is going on, but there must be better ways than mine. What do other coaches/archers do when this aspect of the shot is causing stray shots? What are the important issues to get across to the archer? Is it about what that part of the shot feels like; or about what actually happens?

[napolienne]

Both -I would say the important thing is to tie in the two, so that the archer knows what the shot feels like when it happens (or preferably, doesn't happen).

To this end - slow mo video is your frieeeeeeend. Pictures are often worth a thousand words.

[geoffretired]

Thanks, Napolienne. So this will only work with constant feedback from a coach or similar? It's no good saying ,"Now practise as often as you can," if those practises aren't going to be observed?

[phil_r_58]

Hi geoff.

My favourite method when helping someone in these circumstances is just to do a round with them, and quietly watch them. Giving feedback shot by shot gets in the way. I want to separate the normal accidental mistakes, from those happening more repeatedly. I always think like a science experiment. If you interfere, you will be affecting the outcome. Which I feel happens when you keep giving advice in real time.

On a field round I would just shoot round with them, watching from different sides, and behind, to get a feel for their individual style of shooting. Looking for "trends" if you like. Then sitting down at the end of the round and discussing what I noticed. Then we would agree what needed most attention, and prioritising the faults.

Then we would do another round, with me prompting, but being very careful to work on one thing at a time.

My friend Mike and myself used to do this to each other. Even though we might be shooting alone, we would not shoot at the same time, just take it in turns to watch and shoot. Mike was probably the best archer in Europe at that time. But even he had bad habits creep up on him. He always told me it was those unobtrusive observations that helped him stay up at the top.

Well thats my personal view, but many may disagree.

[TWIW]

Originally Posted by napolienne

Both -I would say the important thing is to tie in the two, so that the archer knows what the shot feels like when it happens (or preferably, doesn't happen).

To this end - slow mo video is your frieeeeeeend. Pictures are often worth a thousand words.

I agree, videos are really important. Slow motion ones are better but not always available. However thay will only show the physical aspect of the shot. Speaking from persaonal experience (getting back into shooting after a 6 year break) and as a coach, I have found that the effects of muscle control, tension and anxiety have a potentially much more immediate effect on the shot. Much of the muscle related problems come from the mental part of the shot. So how to approach this?

Some questions:

Is the bow weight comfortable to handle?

Can the archer control the bow weight over a the duration of a round. (As opposed to being able to pull the string back to the anchor 3 or 4 times)

Can the archer feel his back working? Is there tension in and around the shoulder blades?

Can you, the coach describe what the archer should feel in his back muscles?

Is the archer anticipating the loose and moving forward or losing tension at the point of loose?

Is the archer aiming too long thereby tiring their muscles and locking them up to stop the weight sliding forward?

Is the archer 'trying too hard' to aim?

Is the arrow creeping? If so why? Which of the above is causing the creep?

The hardest part of the shot to analyse, IMHO, is muscle tension. Only the archer can describe what they are feeling but we need to be able to ask the right questions to find out which muscles the archer is using at each point of the draw and loose.

Some observations help of course: Crabbed hands, cords standing out in the neck, head movement, low elbows, high shoulders

But assuming all this looks OK we (I) ask the archer where they felt the weight of the bow during a shot? Biceps?, forearm, back? If so where?


On a personal note I rarely talk about muscles in the back as archers just don't know how to move them. However ask them to move their arm up or back using the shoulder and they have no problems using the right back muscles. Also I like to get the archer to feel what it is like to pull on a pencil I'm holding while trying to move their elbow backwards with a loose bicep etc.

[napolienne]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Thanks, Napolienne. So this will only work with constant feedback from a coach or similar? It's no good saying ,"Now practise as often as you can," if those practises aren't going to be observed?

Not neccessarily constant feedback for session after session, but certainly very close involvement for a couple of sessions so the archer learns what to look/feel for. There is no reason that once they have this knowledge they can't be left to their own devices for a bit with a video camera/digital camera/mobile phone camera and tripod if they need it.

As for enforcing practice - hard to do short of being there all the time - but request a session log in e-mail format and some video once a week/at regular intervals. If the archer knows you are expecting this stuff, they are more likely to do it than if left entirely to their own devices. As a coach you can review video and log (which will tell you a lot about the archer's mental state as well as the actual practice they are doing) from a distance, allowing you to make more focussed and informed plans for what time you do have for 1-1 coaching. Communication and regular review are essential, of course.

[geoffretired]

Hi Phil,
Thanks for that. I think I would agree with the idea of quietly finding out what the problems are then giving a run down later.It can be all too easy to jump in before the pattern has established itself.
I feel that the particular aspect I am exploring here, could be a special case. ( I could be wrong though)
For some archers, this section of the shot is a mystery; they do not know what happens, hence their statements about missing and never knowing why.
If that aspect is variable and spoiling their groups, how can they learn what "good" feels like? How do they get to the stage where they can make the next shot feel the same as a previous "good" one?
At present, I feel this is a very important aspect of shooting good shots. If my reasoning is wrong then I need to know why so I don't go passing on poor advice.

[napolienne]

Originally Posted by thewayitwas

The hardest part of the shot to analyse, IMHO, is muscle tension. Only the archer can describe what they are feeling but we need to be able to ask the right questions to find out which muscles the archer is using at each point of the draw and loose.

I agree - need to use questions, observation of the shot (live and video) and the context of it (e.g.can you see the archer stretching/rubbing a sore muscle between shots/ends? This would indicate tension..), and lots of poking of muscles to quantify this.

Originally Posted by thewayitwas

On a personal note I rarely talk about muscles in the back as archers just don't know how to move them. However ask them to move their arm up or back using the shoulder and they have no problems using the right back muscles. Also I like to get the archer to feel what it is like to pull on a pencil I'm holding while trying to move their elbow backwards with a loose bicep etc.

Also agree - this is another area where video can help. Showing them a clip of an archer who is obviously using their back muscles can lead to one of those "Oooooooh I see" moments.

[geoffretired]

Sorry, Napolienne and thewayitwas.
I didn't mean to ignore your posts; I was typing while your words
a were arriving; I am a very slow typist! Sorry.
Thanks to you both for the new posts.
I agree with all that has been said.Napolienne for your advice on how to do the sessions on video etc.
Colin, I agree with what you say about movements rather than muscles.Feelings are the difficult aspect to put into words. I agree about observing all the little clues prior to the point of no return.
For many archers, those observed activities will have a very strong bearing on what happens at the point of release. IF, all the run up is sound, is it still possible to get stray arrows? Or is it a case of, if the run up is as it should be, for the individual, the shot will be good?
I appreciate that if the run up has variations, then there is less chance of good groups.

[phil_r_58]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Hi Phil,
Thanks for that. I think I would agree with the idea of quietly finding out what the problems are then giving a run down later.It can be all too easy to jump in before the pattern has established itself.
I feel that the particular aspect I am exploring here, could be a special case. ( I could be wrong though)
For some archers, this section of the shot is a mystery; they do not know what happens, hence their statements about missing and never knowing why.
If that aspect is variable and spoiling their groups, how can they learn what "good" feels like? How do they get to the stage where they can make the next shot feel the same as a previous "good" one?
At present, I feel this is a very important aspect of shooting good shots. If my reasoning is wrong then I need to know why so I don't go passing on poor advice.

As for the "just practising" that is a perennial for beginners and intermediates. Do coaches still teach the "checklist" method ? To me it has become ingrained.

"Ok, so I'm on the line, check feet and position, Comfortable, in my usual position OK?, move on"

Hand in bow sling, feel hand into riser. OK? Nock Arrow, Put tension on string, move hand about and wriggle it into my normal position. Does it feel right ? yes Move on.

A bit taken from my thoughts, bit garbled maybe. But when I was into fencing, my master had us practising set moves for hours on end, till they became instinctive. Every attack has a parry, every parry has riposte. My friend Ken, who is a county karate coach does the same thing with his students.