The subconscious in archery

[geoffretired]

Can someone please clarify for me what is meant by the subconscious, in relation to shooting?
In particular, what is the difference between an action that is "subconscious" and one that is merely done without the archer thinking about it or being aware that they are doing it, like a bad habit?
I am confused about such things as, for example, someone who has a slight collapse at the release of the string; sometimes called a forward loose. Is that a subconscious act or merely one that they don't notice?
Are subconscious acts, such as the release, learnt in a different way from things that become habits? Some examples of each type would help me understand the differences. Thanks in advance.

[mk1]

I'll have a go :-)

Try thinking really hard about over under and round next time to tie your laces or go teach a child to do it - concentration, effort, remembering, dexterity.

Once you mastered tying your laces do you ever think about it? Of course not (whoo a pun!! ) you take it for granted and just tie your laces as you know how to do it. Of course some people are more particular about tying laces than others nice tight knot, even lace lengths, balanced bows; some however just go for a sloppy tie and the knot can come undone and a lace end can drag on the ground; and if you shift your focus and start thinking about where you're going once you get those shoes on before you before you give the knot an extra tug ...

So it is with an archery shot, a badly ingrained style with a lack of attention to detail and a wandering focus.

[phil_r_58]

I would not put a forward loose down to Psychological style, but bad physiological form as the primary cause, I.E poor or non existent back tension. If the back tension is correct, the arm will go back, unless the cause is a "flinch" reaction. Which is then itself a collapse of back tension.

Subconscious style is down to repetition making something become a habit, that you no longer think of. The brain makes those movements as "hard wired" connections in the memory neurons. It's like in martial arts, and indeed fencing. Moves become instinctive, and so do the responses. I believe that they become embedded in the deeper core of the brain were reflexes are controlled.

I know that if I decided to make a certain attack on a rival in fencing, they would block a parry, and I would come back with the suitable riposte instinctively. This came about after hours, weeks and months of repetitive training. Even learning how to move forwards and back wards in a smooth perfectly balanced glide. Friends in Martial arts tell me it's the same for them.

To get over target panic, I blank baled at point blank, blindfolded for ages. At the end, I had mentally separated release from aiming. Drawing and releasing have become acts that I no longer think about. The only thing I do under conscious control is aim. When I'm steady on the spot, I let the release begin, and I have no idea when it is going to go. Rather like a child, who, without a thought drops a toy, and picks up another one. (a bit more human than "like a leaf, falling from the tree")

The big trouble comes, when you have developed a fault, and it becomes instinctive. Curing it can be really uncomfortable, because you have to change something deep in the mind.

In many respects, it is a very "pavlovian" subject. A brilliant one for discussing over a pint in the apree' shoot in the evenings.

[Jerry Tee]

Originally Posted by phil_r_58

I would not put a forward loose down to Psychological style, but bad physiological form as the primary cause, I.E poor or non existent back tension. If the back tension is correct, the arm will go back, unless the cause is a "flinch" reaction. Which is then itself a collapse of back tension.

Subconscious style is down to repetition making something become a habit, that you no longer think of. The brain makes those movements as "hard wired" connections in the memory neurons. It's like in martial arts, and indeed fencing. Moves become instinctive, and so do the responses. I believe that they become embedded in the deeper core of the brain were reflexes are controlled.

I know that if I decided to make a certain attack on a rival in fencing, they would block a parry, and I would come back with the suitable riposte instinctively. This came about after hours, weeks and months of repetitive training. Even learning how to move forwards and back wards in a smooth perfectly balanced glide. Friends in Martial arts tell me it's the same for them.

To get over target panic, I blank baled at point blank, blindfolded for ages. At the end, I had mentally separated release from aiming. Drawing and releasing have become acts that I no longer think about. The only thing I do under conscious control is aim. When I'm steady on the spot, I let the release begin, and I have no idea when it is going to go. Rather like a child, who, without a thought drops a toy, and picks up another one. (a bit more human than "like a leaf, falling from the tree")

The big trouble comes, when you have developed a fault, and it becomes instinctive. Curing it can be really uncomfortable, because you have to change something deep in the mind.

In many respects, it is a very "pavlovian" subject. A brilliant one for discussing over a pint in the apree' shoot in the evenings.

Same for racquet sports. The actual shot is a triggered reaction but the point at which the reaction is triggered has to be observed and controlled by the conscious mind as there is a greater need for timing and accuracy. I believe that the same is true of archery.We observe the shot sequence, draw & aim are actions observed by the conscious mind and (Hopefully) at the right time when the pin is on the gold we trigger the subconscious action of the loose.

[phil_r_58]

Originally Posted by Jerry Tee

Same for racquet sports. The actual shot is a triggered reaction but the point at which the reaction is triggered has to be observed and controlled by the conscious mind as there is a greater need for timing and accuracy. I believe that the same is true of archery.We observe the shot sequence, draw & aim are actions observed by the conscious mind and (Hopefully) at the right time when the pin is on the gold we trigger the subconscious action of the loose.

And do you find in racquet sports when people try too hard, it goes wrong ?

[geoffretired]

Thanks for yor help folks, I am getting clearer ideas from your inputs.
So, can tying shoelaces become a subconscious action by the time we can manage without looking?
Phil, can I go on a bit about the forward loose?
I know it wasn't learnt deliberately so in a way it is down to poor form. But looked at again, can the bad habit be described as happening subconsciously because the archer has got used to doing it and it now happens without their knowing.
Jerry, is the loose the only subconscious action in the shot sequence?
Could a bad habit be called another example of the same?

[Random_guy]

Psychologically speaking the hole area is a bit of a mine-field. With only a basic grounding in psychology i'm not the best qualified person to answer, but i'll have a go.

'Subconscious' actions and 'habits' are both fairly poorly defined terms, but essentially the same thing. Both are actions learnt through conditioning of one form or another, that are completed in response to a given set of stimuli. The main difference being that when people talk about an undesirable response, or one that is inappropriate in that situation or that they simply did not mean to do, they call it a 'habit', whereas if its something they have practiced again and again and are intending it to occur they refer to it as 'subconscious'.

All that is a bit of a generalisation but you get the gist. I think in the case of the forward release, i think i would agree that it is more due to incorrect use of back tension (i suffer from one myself at the moment). If the archer isn't aware of it, then there is no negative feed back, telling them that they have done something wrong.

If they then 'fake' follow through, and the arrow goes vaguely in the middle (even if only some of the time) then there is actually positive feedback, as the archer believes they have made a good shot, and the small collapse at the moment of release becomes reinforced.

This is all based on the behavioural model of psychology, if anyone is interested, and there's a lot of literature about it out there, but it is by no means the only psychological model that could offer an explanation for the forward release! (Just in case anyone else is interested)

[phil_r_58]

Originally Posted by Random_guy

Psychologically speaking the hole area is a bit of a mine-field. With only a basic grounding in psychology I'm not the best qualified person to answer, but I'll have a go.

'Subconscious' actions and 'habits' are both fairly poorly defined terms, but essentially the same thing. Both are actions learnt through conditioning of one form or another, that are completed in response to a given set of stimuli. The main difference being that when people talk about an undesirable response, or one that is inappropriate in that situation or that they simply did not mean to do, they call it a 'habit', whereas if its something they have practised again and again and are intending it to occur they refer to it as 'subconscious'.

All that is a bit of a generalisation but you get the gist. I think in the case of the forward release, i think i would agree that it is more due to incorrect use of back tension (i suffer from one myself at the moment). If the archer isn't aware of it, then there is no negative feed back, telling them that they have done something wrong.

If they then 'fake' follow through, and the arrow goes vaguely in the middle (even if only some of the time) then there is actually positive feedback, as the archer believes they have made a good shot, and the small collapse at the moment of release becomes reinforced.

This is all based on the behavioural model of psychology, if anyone is interested, and there's a lot of literature about it out there, but it is by no means the only psychological model that could offer an explanation for the forward release! (Just in case anyone else is interested)

Good point on the fake release. My old coach and mentor would loop a bit of string through the crook in the elbow, and take up the slack in the string as you drew. Any forward movement would "yank the string. and prove to you that you were doing it.

And Geoff, any part of the draw etc, can become fixed in memory as a "habit" if done repeatedly.

It's not all totally clear cut. My release is totally unconscious. My draw is a mix of both. I used to do a mental checklist, from "wiggle the hand into grip, tension string, finalise bow position, raise bow". Pretty standard stuff, so now I am only semi conscious of the draw and breathing. I'm just standing there, looking at the ground as I begin, transferring vision to the target as I begin the process. Aim is the same, back tension and T-section are so practised, I feel when it's not right, then consciously decide what to do EG, come down or amend in situ.

Release is simply touch finger on trigger, increase back tension, pressing the sight into the spot, release arm going in opposite direction. At some point the trigger tension is enough to set it off.

So even the conscious parts, begin to get an unconscious pattern, by sheer repetition.
Is that the sort of thing you were looking for Geoff

[Jerry Tee]

Originally Posted by phil_r_58

And do you find in racquet sports when people try too hard, it goes wrong ?

Yes with tennis you can hit the shot out of the back of the court. Squash the ball has too much energy and bounces out of the corner you were trying to make it drop in and die. Badminton the timing goes and you try to 'muscle' the shot which actually reduces the racquet head speed at the moment of impact with the shuttlecock instead of each action of a part of the arm and shoulder adding to the last ending in the high speed pivot of the wrist and follow through. the whole shot is stiffened and slowed.

[geoffretired]

Thanks to Random Guy and Phil once more.
It would seem that habits are learnt and can become subconscious.They may be learnt accidentally rather than deliberately, but once established they are there for good.( or nearly?) I have been lead to believe that once learnt, that's it. Unlearning is all but impossible. Better to learn something better and establish that than try to stop doing whatever it was, does that sound about right?
The forward loose has always seemed to me to be a flaw in so many archers' technique. Perhaps I mix with the wrong people!
I believe, as you do that it is poor back muscle control. I would go further and add that I feel it slowly becomes part of the technique when there is no one around to help correct it. It then becomes something they DO without realising.This can so often lead to looking in the wrong place for a solution.
What started this all off was something that I do as a coach. I tend to use the example of tying shoelaces, and how we get to be able to do it without looking, to help explain how some bad habits get into our shooting. That seems to take the guilt out of the archer.( they often seem to want to justify why they make mistakes as if they are at school and about to be punished)
I have been a bit concerned recently that I was using the wrong words to describe what is going on. Using "subconscious" etc when perhaps that's the wrong word. If I am wrong then I need to know what is right. If I sound a bit nit picky, then it's only because I want to know for sure, rather than hope I'm right.
Thanks for your inputs, I feel better already.