The Coaches paradox

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by ironmonkey

do you mean coaching qualifications are generally getting more sensitive to PC issues?
more to do with how not to upset anyone, rather than how to get people to shoot straight safely?

Coaching getting more sensitive to PC issues? I should hope so... Inclusion, respect for others etc Not a bad move in my book.

As to the teaching people to shoot safely, I think that is paramount on a Coaching course. It is frightening the amount of people on Coaching courses who need to be reminded of range safety. And getting people to shoot safely, with a technique that will not damage them has to be taught.

And strangely, all of the stuff that gets taught on a Coaching course is what turns up in courses at work.

If you want Coaching to be modern, you have to understand that it has to be brought up to modern ways of thinking. And that includes all the stuff you don't think is useful. Like Health & Safety and standards.

I work in computing, and some of the standards that have come in over the years appear to be taking a sledgehammer to crack a peanut. At one point, small rapid developments could be done say in 2 weeks. Now with the paperwork and other documentation, it takes twice that time... but being able to turn rond to customers and say, "well that's what you asked for and signed off on, and that's what you got", is priceless.

Oh and as for GNAS Coaching certificates not being worth it. Don't you believe it. People who get them have worked hard for them. Yes there are the odd rogue Coaches out there, but they are being weeded out. It's not going to be done overnight.

If you think that GNAS Coaching could be improved, don't just sit on the sidelines and have a go at the Coaches. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!

Now that I've had that rant, I'm going to go and lie down in a darkened room....

[Trunkles]

Originally Posted by Meddler

If you think that GNAS Coaching could be improved, don't just sit on the sidelines and have a go at the Coaches. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!

Well said - have a beer

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by Trunkles

Well said - have a beer

Thanks Andy, I always need something to lubricate the throat after I've had a loud shout.....

[mixi]

I'm not sure how the coaching system here is currently working. But I imagine that Peter Suk had a fairly expansive knoledge about good shooting technique. It would be nice to think he will have the same impact that KS Lee had on the Australian and American coaching systems. By which he (to what degree i don't know) re educated the top coaches who in turn filtered down the information. He did this while still instructing the nations elite teams to a highly acceptable level. Also holding many conferences so that average joe can learn directly. What is Peter Suk's actural role withing the UK coaching system. Does anyone know if his knolege is being systematically filtered down to grass roots or if he is just here to instruct the elite archers, which in a waste compared to what KS Lee has achieved.

[grimsby archer]

just for the record, incase you didnt notice, I am pretty hacked off with this attitude that gnas coaches are by definition crap.

firstly lets put the shoe on the other foot. i know lots of gnas archers, many of whom are crap (even the ones who dont know it). by definition most of them shoot below bowman class. does that make all gnas archers crap?

next i agree with points made about training for coaches filtering down from the lofty portals. support for coaches within the coaching system is poor but slowly getting better.

yes there are some god awful coaches around but the majority of coaches are of average ability, just like the archers they coach, working together to improve, so dont tar all coaches with the same brush.

Singing the praises of the likes of KSL and Suk wont make you shoot any better. The average archer wont ever get coached by the likes of these genii. For those of you who are great enough and lucky enough to be coached by these genii, be aware of your responsibility as a role model. The sheep of this country follow your lead and copy what you do. You get good results with a particular stabilisation config and soon everyone will be trying it. IF you denigrate gnas coaches, the sheep are soon repeating the same thing. All those 2nd class archers who think that a club coach isnt good enough for them.

[mixi]

I knew the old cliche "tar with the same old brush" would pop up soon. Really it isn't the case. Gnas trained coaches earned their own bad reputation. Perhaps it was them who tainted you with their brush? Singing KSL praises wont make you shoot better, but studying efficient technique will, of course will a well trained coach it will even more. I'm sure the good gnas coaches are well known in the archery world having made their own good reputation. Of course coaches that are good that teach bad archers are made to look bad too which is not fair. But a more amusing cliche popped into my mind "you can't polish a turd"

[ironmonkey]

Originally Posted by Meddler

Coaching getting more sensitive to PC issues? I should hope so... Inclusion, respect for others etc Not a bad move in my book.

i don't think anyone on this board thinks it is a bad move.

Originally Posted by mixi

Gnas trained coaches earned their own bad reputation.

yep,
there will always be "let's bash coaches" threads, until the standard of coaching improves.

i must say Meddler, i find your ability to use large font size extremely persuasive!!
as for "doing something about it", the people already in the ideal position to do something about it are coaches. however, coaches in general must accept feedback from the archer community in general! AIUK is a good medium for general feedback.

if i spend 5 minutes on here introducing a few coaches to reality (from an archer's perspective), that's the best way i can immediately do something about it. if some coaches, having read this thread, continue onwards with abit more responsability, humility and curiosity, it will be 5 minutes well spent.
a useful skill as a human and an archer/coach is to deal with criticism.

not all coaches are crap, but ALL coaches must continuously strive towards improvement!! this is the quality which will earn respect from your archers.

[Trunkles]

Originally Posted by ironmonkey

but ALL coaches must continuously strive towards improvement!!

This is one of the aims of the Continuous Professional Development requirements in the new scheme

[TWIW]

I've had to read this thread twice to get the full picture. I am also a GNAS (County) Coach.

This perception thing: The only place I hear GNAS Coaches being slagged off is on forums like this one. Whenever I have been in or visited a club I have never heard it said that I am a crap (or other derogatory word) coach and not worth listening to. Not everyone wanted coaching mind but those that did, asked and got some benefit from the experience.

With respect to this idea that a coach is not worth approaching if he/she cannot shoot MB really makes my blood boil. If I wanted to be MB I'd put in the time to achieve it. But 10 years ago I decided I wanted to help my fellow archers and accepted that my standard of archery was going to stagnate at least if not deteriorate. Just because I can't shoot 1200+ in a Gent's FITA doesn't mean that I am incapable of making sensible reasoned assessments of an archers style and approach to their sport. I have been taught the same observation and assessment methods used by these almost God-like (if you believe everything that is said on here) Korean coaches, as well as sport psychology methodologies. From personal experience I know of several current and past MB archers who couldn't teach/coach to save their lives and in some instances you wouldn't want to adopt their shooting style either. The score an archer achieves often bears little relation to their ability to coach other archers. Having said that, there are others who deservedly have the high reputation and regard they have with other archers , and there are a few on this Forum I can think of. (they have certainly helped me).

I have to say that, in my current situation, I have seen nothing with respect to the dissemination of the 'latest' technique (or wonder method depening on your point of view), filtering down from the National Squads. The situation may be different where the coaches/managers live as there is obviously a direct feedback from the person involved in the squad. I can definitely say that I have not received/seen/read/been advised of the methods currently employed in squad training from ANY GNAS coaching official/website/newsletter or forum. Indeed the only place I have become aware of what is alledgedly being done is on this and other forums. This is extremely worrying as far as I am concerned because it gives the impression that the coaching management ahve the opinion that the coaches working in the clubs do not need or cannot understand/use the elite coaching methodologies. And by association neither can the club archers.

As for coach training. I thought my training, under the old system was excellent and felt capable of fulfilling my remit from the outset. But then I, and my fellow candidates had 2 of the very best Senior coaches teaching us and they gave us far more than the syllabus called for. The real problem was the renewal process - it was easy for uninterested coaches to retain their certificates, to the detriment of the archers they taught/helped. With respect to the 'New Way' of coach training courses I can't really comment except for the level 1 course (having completed the Assessor's course here under Meddler's tutelage). Bearing in mind that they are only being called upon to teach beginners, the course looks to be too complex, too long, and teaches little more than a good intermediate archer can pick up whilst shooting at their club for about a year. In fact I am extremely concerned at the amount of paperwork these types of courses appear to be generating: I have heard that assessors/managers etc are writing/producing volumes of paper to support the course. This seemes to be a modern trend (see the complaints forrm the police force amongst others) In this green day and age sureltythe aim should be to REDUCE the administrative burden and, in consequence the papertrail generated. I would be interested to hear from, say Meddler (as he seems to be the only developer willing to put 'pen to paper' on ths forum), why so much admin is required.

Whilst I cannot disagree with Meddler that new training should take into consideration H&S, anti discrimination legislation and child protection, I feel it should (nay MUST) not be detrimental to the fundamental purpose of the course which is to teach archers to become acomplished coaches, with all the associated skills. To my mind the main thrust of any course is to produce thoroughly trained personnel, with a good understanding of (in the case of archery) H&S etc. as it applies to archery. These elements are not and, in my opinion, can never be more important than the fundamental purpose of the course, which is the equip candidate coaches with the necessary knowledge and skills to coach effectively at their 'chosen' level. I will be very interested to see the syllabus of the new Level 2 course and compare it with what was taught under the 'old' syllabus. My fear is that it will follow the current trend of S/NVQs where a candidate who can demonstrate a task satisfactorily, without being required to display any understanding of the underlying principles will be deemed competent. If this becomes the case then I truly believe that the current perception of GNAS coaches expounded in this thread will rapidly become deserved. It is not enough to be able to observe a 'fault' in an archers technique and state what the 'prefered' remedy is, without being able to explain, simply, succinctly and accurately the cause(s) creating the 'fault'. That at least was drilled into me in both my GNAS coach training course.

After all that I need a whisky

[geoffretired]

Colin, you say you NEED a whisky after that. I say you DESERVE one or even a couple!! Very good post.