Why compensator button?

[Robin the Hood]

Originally Posted by bkupris

You have your coaching hat on and an archer puts the following to you "If I can hit the gold with my longbow why do I need a compensator button on my recurve?" What would you say to that one?

The simple answer is that the Gold can be hit with any bow. But! the ease and consistancy of the task can benefit from which type of equipment you choose.......The fun and enjoyment can come with either.

Paul ... ... ... ...

[yoda]

Originally Posted by bkupris

You have your coaching hat on and an archer puts the following to you "If I can hit the gold with my longbow why do I need a compensator button on my recurve?" What would you say to that one?

answer, "can you hit the gold with the recurve????"

and yes i know it's an answer to a "cheating" question LOL

[bkupris]

Yeah but the question is "why" does the button give an advantage and it has to be answered in technical terms...

[tradbow]

I'd have thought that the 'advantage' is that the button pressure / in-out position can be varied

[Robin the Hood]

Originally Posted by bkupris

You have your coaching hat on and an archer puts the following to you "If I can hit the gold with my longbow why do I need a compensator button on my recurve?" What would you say to that one?

You have now gone deeper into the technicallity than the original question. 'MR BURGER' may be able to answer your question.
Anyway back to the first question...You don't have to have a burger at all, its just that it becomes another advantage on the journey to becoming a champion........Who said I'm loosing it........ ... ...

Paul

Originally Posted by bkupris

Yeah but the question is "why" does the button give an advantage and it has to be answered in technical terms...

[geoffretired]

I like this question, now that I realise it is a REAL one.(sorry)
The in/out adjustment means that arrows of different diameters can be shot with the same amount of offset(in degrees that is)
Having a spring loaded button, is supposed to dampen or reduce the differences between some of the poorly executed shots.
If all shots produced the same movement of the plunger, I guess there would be nothing gained over a rigid button. You would move the rigid button in to the bow so the arrows launched from the same amount of offset, as with the compressed spring position.
If one setting gives better groups than the others, is that not saying that the amount of springiness is reducing the effects of differently shot arrows?
Could a "wrong setting" really exaggerate the differences? Could all the other settings(apart from the best one) have less of a reducing effect on badly shot arrows?
If archers make different "mistakes" now and then, is that the reason why we have different settings for our buttons rather than we all set up in exactly the same way? Or is the different spring tensions also partly due to different spines and bow weights/speeds?

[WhitehartFB]

If your arrows were the perfect spine for you and your bow and you could shoot it the same everytime then you would not require a button assuming you ambition is to put all your arrows in a very small group.

The pressure button reduces the paradox by absorbing some of the arrows sideways bounce against the bow and gives some forgiveness of a bad release.

The comment about Darrel Pace is interesting and I to have heard similar what this demonstrates is that his technique is so good that with carefull selection of spine and a good release the paradox is not so pronounced and does not work the button so hard as somebody with a poor release.

For the rest of us mortals, water in the barrel will create pressure making the spring tension appear stiffer so when shooting in the rain it is a good idea to depress the button a couple of time to remove any water that has been collected.

[Robin the Hood]

I think that Geoff has given a very good reply to the working of the button.
The only thing I would add is that what I believe. Although the berger is set to the bow being used at that time, the individual settings that it's given is partly to do with your own shooting ie. 'style and technique' and if you shot another bow and used the same berger set at same centre I think that it would need very little (if none) adjustment.
One other point I would make is that the berger is able to perform its best with the flipper rest. At one time this was not always the practice.....

Paul....

[bkupris]

Originally Posted by Whitehart

The pressure button reduces the paradox by absorbing some of the arrows sideways bounce against the bow and gives some forgiveness of a bad release.

Yeah I agree Whitehart the "why" as far as I can tell so far. Below copied from Texas State Archery website goes into a bit more detail. Thanks all

[Latin paradoxum, from Greek paradoxon, from neuter singular of paradoxos, conflicting with expectation : para-, beyond; see para-1 + doxa, opinion (from dokein, to think.]
Layperson "logic" dictates that a straight and balanced arrow must be shot straight at a target in order to hit it. In reality, the arrow must be aimed OFF of the target by a traditional archer in order to hit the target. You do not point the arrow at the target, this is THE paradox. Thus the 4th definition above seems to me to fit the phrase most closely. ("archer's paradox").
Flaws of logical assumption
1. The arrow is obviously stiff and rigid, just hold it in your hands and try to bend it! It doesn't bend much, if at all.
2. The string travels straight forward when released by the fingers because it pushes the fingers out of the way! It must push the arrow STRAIGHT to the target!
Wrong!
Discussion:
The term "Archer's Paradox" was coined by Dr. Robert P. Elmer, a well-known archery author in the 1930s. His observations were confirmed by others who used high speed photography to scrutinize the behavior of an arrow upon release by the archer to answer a paradoxical situation.
His concern was the question as to why an arrow will succeed in hitting a target even though the arrow is placed at an angle to the side of the target prior to shooting. It is actually pointing away, off of the target to the side away from the bow.
From appearances when properly placed on the bow of a right-handed archer, the arrow should strike well to the left of the target as it travels in a direct path to the target. It does not. This is a paradoxical situation! (And is also present for left-handed archers, only to the opposite/right side of the target.)
What his reasoning and much subsequent photography revealed was that the arrow flexes and the string does not travel straight forward upon loosing! Even though to the naked eye an arrow seems a rigid and unbending shaft, in reality it bends and flexes when placed under the pressures of an accelerating bowstring and the lateral displacement caused by the bowstring sliding sideways from the fingers of the archer. Even the string slides sideways from the fingers on it's way to the resting position after the arrow has flown.
It is said for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and it is certainly true in this case. The action is the bowstring sliding sideways and then forward towards the target. The reaction is the arrow flexing in direct proportion to the force. It bends in a balanced way to one side, and then bends the opposite way, and back, again and again, decreasing its oscillations slightly each cycle as it flies until it strikes the target. The shaft bends due to the inertial resistance of the shaft and the (heavier) tip as well as the sidethrust of the string coming off of the fingers, and the manner of the bend is consistently the same because the bowstring slips off of the fingertips in the same sideways direction each time. (Assuming the archer is consistent in her/his release technique!) The tail of the arrow gets pushed away from the bow at just the same time that the string is suddenly free to push the shaft towards the front of the bow. The tip of the arrow gets no sideways push, but since it has mass it resists the forward motion for an instant while the nock is moving forward, and the shaft BENDS as a result.
The spine (stiffness) of the shaft together with the weight of the tip and the strength of the bow limbs, the tension of the plunger, and the fingers motion all serve to determine how much bend will occur. Practical experience and testing reveals that for maximum accuracy and for bow clearance the spine for a given bow must be neither too stiff NOR too weak. Otherwise the arrow strikes the bow and is deflected. The way the archer releases the string also controls how much bending occurs and that is one reason why it is so important that the archer be consistent in how the arrow is "loosed" or released.
Back to defining Archers' Paradox: Essentially, prior to release, the arrow must be pointed OFF of the target by a distance that equals proportionately the sideways deflection caused by the string sliding off of the fingers of the archer. This Offset Distance, aka "Center-Shot" is subject to the SYSTEM. let's define the SYSTEM as a combination of all the varying parts of the setup: the technique of the archer, the material of the finger tab, the spine of the arrow, the weight of the tip of the arrow, the nature of the bowstring (strands, composition, serving, length, twists), the nock and its grip on the string, the plunger button's resistance, the arrow rest, the settings of brace height, sight, center-shot. Change any one part of the SYSTEM and you alter the behavior of the rest of the parts. They are all inter-dependent, in other words.
The arrow flexion, while unavoidable, is beneficial because it actually assists in accuracy. Due to flexion the shaft's trailing end will not strike the arrow rest and the bow. Were it to hit or graze the bow's other components as it leaves the bow then the arrow's flight would be altered causing decreased accuracy (and torn or creased fletchings). This often happens when the arrow spine is too weak but can also happen if it is too stiff. The spine must be ahhhhhh, just right.
The cushion plunger or button is employed on a recurve bow to dampen the reflections of the shaft, to absorb some of the energy of the flexion so the oscillations will be smaller. Fewer/smaller oscillations will keep the arrow closer to the center of the target during flight, resulting in more efficient flight and a more accurate shot. The process of TUNING the recurve bow is making a series of tests and adjustments to the various components to arrive at just the right amount that the arrow need be aimed "off" of dead center and decrease the amount of flexion, for the system, to get the smallest groups of arrows at the target as possible.
THAT , in my opinion, is archer's paradox. I'm amazed that people were able to deduce the causes prior to having ultra-high speed photography, and am amused that people today are unable to accept certain verifiable facts even with such photography.

[Furface]

Originally Posted by bkupris

... I'm amazed that people were able to deduce the causes prior to having ultra-high speed photography....

Rather like Democritus and atomic theory! It is so often worthwhile to listen to an old archer who may not know why something happens but does know what to do, rather than an archer who knows exactly what is happening, but hasn't a clue what to do.