Draw style

[geoffretired]

This thread has come at a time when my draw has been going through some revisions.Instead of drawing so the hand slides under the jaw, I now draw slightly below and then up towards the reference positions under the jaw.
I was hoping that by drawing that way, I would make it less likely to pull the last little bit in a downwards direction,possibly causing some of the high shots I make now and again.
As a result, the feelings are quite different at that stage of the shot/draw. I can best describe it as, the draw hand seems as if it would fly over my shoulder on release, as opposed to sliding back away from the target into no- man's land.I am using a hand held release, so my hand is higher than my draw shoulder, hence the feeling that it could fly over it.
I feel that the drawing elbow is now moving horizontally or slightly uphill at the final stage of the draw. That makes me think it was pulling downwards before I made these changes.
There is one aspect of this that has me a little puzzled.By drawing the last little bit in this current method, it seems that the whole shoulder system is moving back and round behind me.My rear shoulder blade is being moved, almost automatically towards my spine. Is there something in the make up of the shoulder area that causes this to happen? Or, am I making this happen without being aware of it?

[johnske]

Originally Posted by Flying Whale

Interesting. The injury issue was not one I had heard before. Could I clarify? Is it

a. the high-T style of draw (with both hands being held at eye-level), or
b. coming to reference point with the sight a little above the gold, and then settling down to it which is the factor involved in the injuries?

Neither, the actual draw was where ki sik lees technique varied from the power archery style of shooting... just prior to vacating our shores ki sik lee was teaching a draw such that - the bow was to be held extended with the sight aimed and held on the gold while the draw-hand was to be drawn straight back at shoulder level until - when fully drawn the draw hand was raised to the anchor position. of course when the hand is drawn straight back (to full draw) at shoulder level with the sight held on the gold the arrow is being pointed in a direction that if the string was accidentally released the arrow would go way over the top of the target - thus contravening FITA ruile 7.7.7 Viz:

When drawing back the string of his or her bow an athlete must not use any technique which, in the opinion of the Judges, could allow the arrow, if accidentally released, fly beyond a safety zone or safety arrangements (overshoot area, net, wall etc.). If an athlete persists in using such a technique, he or she will, in the interest of safety, be asked by the Chairperson of the Judges Commission and/or the Director of Shooting to stop shooting immediately and to leave the field.

[steve58]

This thread has a life of its own!
I think there seems to be a consensus that it is possible to draw as I do within the rules (phew!)
Worrying to see mention of possible injuries, anyone got any links to material on this? Or to "Power Archery"? Not heard that term before...

[Hidden Hippo]

I generally bring my draw hand up to around eye level and then draw down into my anchor as it helps to keep my shoulders and elbow down. It also helps me to settle into the shot in a psychological manner (breathe out as you draw down and breathe in slowly as you expand through the clicker).

[johnske]

Originally Posted by sp220

Its just an old term that is pretty much what people now recognise as a technique tought by Kisik Lee.

Ask Jim about it next time you see him, its how he tought me to shoot. Its nothing new.

As for the draw style mentioned by Kisik Lee, releasing early *may* let an arrow fly above a target...

But no way beyond an overshoot. Not unless I havnt met this freak shooter pulling 100+ lb on his fingers.

I beg to differ there, I can almost get a clout shot drawing in the manner described - more than enough to get over the 50m overshoot required at 90m anyway, but - why do it? There's several other ways to draw, and ways that don't waste as much energy. Anyway, as a judge I err on the side of caution where safety is concerned and when i see someone drawing in an unsafe manner like that i advise them to either modify their draw or withdraw (before they're involuntarily withdrawn).

The book on power archery by Dave Keagy (or Keagey - or something similar) came out somewhere around 1960, and was titled simply "Power Archery". I had a copy up to a few years back but it got lost after I lent it to someone. 'Power archery' was a very popular style for a few years, with about 50% of the top archers of the time using the style but it gradually fell out of favour. You should be able to get a copy from somewhere on the net...

[johnske]

Originally Posted by sp220

We are talking about drawing in-line about 2-3 inches below the anchor and then raising the drawing hand up to meet the chin/anchor?

I think releasing early would definately be a wild arrow, but I dont think it could be classed as unsafe.

Yes it is, and with some ppl it's more like 5-6 inches - and i don't make claims like that without trying it (more than once)...

Originally Posted by sp220

As for the whole "power archery" thing. Its been around for years, its tried and tested, and its pretty much the same thing tought by others that has just been re-packaged or renamed... The principles to this day remain the same

The only reason my coach mentionned it is because hes 73-74, one of the two, so knows what it may have originally been called... not that it makes a difference.

In response to Steve, id say you've seen me shooting countless times, and I'm fine. Scott Collette also shot in the same way I do, you may have seen him at the club in the past, me and him have both shot internationally, and we are both uninjured....

I think this may give you a clue about random aspertions being cast about "power archery"...

Good shooting

Well YOUR coach only has a few years on THIS coach (66) and i don't make "random aspertions". I first started shooting about 1961 - round about the time the book came out - i tried it myself, but it didn't suit me - there was 'two camps' at that time and as you can see - there still are. When i first took on a coaching role in about 1970 i asked senior coaches why there were then so few shooting the power archery style and was told it went out of favour because after a while reports of long-term stress injuries started to come in.

We can also note that the korean type draw (high draw arm) has also been around for a long time. A couple of years ago our club inherited a young (19-20) archer that had been taught this draw, had been coached by mr lee, and had competed overseas for Australia. He had been forced out of archery for a couple of years due to a muscular 'neck' injury that was attributed to "very cold weather when competing in new zealand". After observing what he was doing i saw that (of necessity) his draw biceps was pushing his head forward during the inital phase of the draw, when he anchored his head was thus thrust forward and he then reached full draw thru the clicker with the assistance of the muscles of his neck - using the neck muscles to draw was the cause of the neck injury - not the cold weather.

[geoffretired]

Power Archery by Dave J Keaggy, Sr.( based on a series from Archery World Magazine.)
It says his son was the youngest ever to win the US national champs at 16.
It was a step by step method for archers to learn good form from a book.It gave "why's" too.
One of the ideas was that all movement at the follow through should be natural; and a reaction to what had gone before; without conscious control.
A high bow shoulder that was pushed up towards the chin was considered to be a stable position; there was nowhere for it to go after that!! The book also explains that a low shoulder can be used to good effect by many top archers. Choose one and don't chop and change seems to be the gist of it.

[johnske]

Originally Posted by sp220

...
As for the second type of draw, the korean method... His biceps must have been pretty large I take it? that sounds like a very specific case...

I didnt quite understand the part about him using neck muscles to actually draw though. I understand how tension was built by him loading his head onto the string after it being moved backwards out of the way (I have seen this myself), but I dont get how the movement of the string was increased by using neck muscles...

Or do you mean that him moving his head forward was him coming to anchor rather than him pulling further back after his head had finally settled into place?

His biceps were what you could call 'well developed' but not overly large. Look, I tried this myself (I always try before I buy - or comment) and my head was also pushed forward.

How to explain without pictures?... I always teach that the head should be upright when you come to the anchor position, your hand then 'locks in' to the anchor position i.e. you don't draw your anchor finger and draw hand back along the jaw to get through the clicker and you don't move your head. Clicker actuation is by doing what I call "stepping into the bow" - (hard to explain without diagrams) but it simply consists of using your back muscles to get through the clicker.

What this guy was doing was locking his hand into the anchor position while his head was forward and then using the neck muscles to move his head back and get the arrow thu the clicker. No doubt he was also using his back to some degree, but he was also using his neck muscles to help draw thru the clicker...

[johnske]

Well, a high shoulder is definitely a bad thing from a biomechanical viewpoint but the power archery book advocated it for the 'over 50s' (I think it was 50 - from memory) who were assumed to have poorer muscle tone, but a low shoulder was advocated for the younger/fitter archer. The book was separated into sections with different styles for the young/beginners, the fit adult, and the aged.

[field archer author]

I'm not sure if I have got this right,but my understanding of the high draw, when legal, is a parallel draw,with the arrow parallel to the ground, drawing several inches above and coming down as the draw is exceuted. This was shown to me by an American who had worked with the Korean Olympic team years ago. It works wonders for getting back tension on, pushing front shoulder down and getting draw arm in line with arrow. With beginners it eliminates all sorts of possible problem habits developing and it's good for me drawing my compound. It's so effective I have taught it to all my beginners.