execution hesitation

[mk1]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

The light pressure offers the opportunity to be hesitant/delicate. The higher pressure doesn't allow a delicate approach. A bit like some divers jumping off the top board, run at it to remove the option of turning back.Does that make sense? Is my thinking flawed?
.

I think your thinking is pretty sound. You need to work to complete the shot. Anything that focuses your mind on the carrying out the final steps in the shooting sequence gets thumbs up from me. You can do it!!

When someone pointed out to me that I was hesitant with my clicker they put it forward and I just learned to stop at where they put it. So I went home and put it back a little further so I had to work a little harder. After all we're in this sport to shoot arrows, not to pose on the line

[Bald Eagle]

You are all forgetting your front arm!! It plays a vital part in shot execution whether you shoot a recurve or compound. How many times in competition have your arrows seemed to have put on an inch in length or you have had to pull back further to activate the trigger?? We forget about our front arm and we do all the work to activate with the back arm! Clicker activation is easy when you know how and is a discipline to learn. It needs to be set so you can come to full draw as if you haven't got one on your bow, if you worry about activating it the shot sequence is ruined. At full draw and at your reference, gently push, pull and it activates, keeping front arm and back arm in a straight line. Same with a compound, hold on your stop, push pull, activation, straight lines. Even Mr Suk aggrees, 50% front scapula, 50% back scapula!

[geoffretired]

Thanks Bald Eagle.
I think I'm to blame for this one.
I have over played the "pull" word in my posts. I have been working on my front arm for months now and made a little progress, I feel.
The real issue for me is the hesitation. I have been giving the impression that I pull and nothing else.In fact the last part of my draw is about 50% of each; but it is a hesitant aspect of my shot. I don't execute it with confidence.
With your post fresh in my mind, I will pay closer attention to the push, to make sure both arms are really working, rather than my just thinking they do.
Thanks again.

[Robin the Hood]

Geoff..
Don't know if it's any use but, remember me once saying that there are two parts to the shot, Preperation.../...The Shot.
The part of your prep. you are on about is probably the most critical point before the release takes over. (try relaxing but confidently)
Hope you can make a bit of sense of thinking more ahead and positive.

Paul...

[geoffretired]

Paul, Thanks again for that.
If I can talk that back to you, you will know whether or not I have fully understood.
What you are saying fits in with Slartibartfast's, Yorker's and Furface's comments, I think.
Yiou think I should prepare my shots with a particular feature for the problem area. Prepare that section as confident, positive and relaxed. Feel the way I want to shoot when preparing, so I try to copy that on the actual shot?

[Robin the Hood]

Geoff
It all comes back to having a discipline. That can be from the time of coming to the line through to the final hitting the target.
If this is refined as we've mentioned before, then the fact that the procedure is stuck to like the commandments, would increase the confidence to overcome the 'panic mode'. This partly because the preperation would be occupying the mind enough to give no time to allow for bad thoughts to come around.

Paul...

[geoffretired]

Clearer and clearer! Thanks again, Paul.
A slight diversion,if I may. I wound up the pressure really high and found the struggle was no greater. I later returned it to normal and things seemed to flow so much easier. I was not surprised by that, I've done similar things before.However, I know that fairly soon, the struggle will return to "normal" too. As others have said, I'm just moving the struggle around, not addressing the real issue. However, it is good to feel a few shots where there is no real struggle. It helps me to visualise with a bit more realism.
There is something else going on here, too. I can lighten the pressure till there is no struggle but the shots are rubbish. It's as if I couldn't be bothered to shoot properly and just slung arrows at the boss. It's the same if I use my thumb trigger release. If I just activate the trigger with no pulling into the stops, they go everywhere. Pull fairly hard and things improve.

[JohnK]

What do you know - a topic about my personal bugbear

Clicker hesitation is probably my downfall as a recurve archer. I can draw to within a few mm of the point and spend anything from 2 to 15 seconds drawing through. This is what I had most trouble with before I switched the barebow for a while, and is still my problem now I’ve decided to give target recurve another go (reserving barebow for field archery).

Luckily, I have an excellent coach who has got me well on the road to recovery.

The problem is twofold:

Firstly, I’m not quite strong enough to handle the draw weight of the bow (approx 43lbs). I can get to full draw, but completing the shot is a bit of a struggle.

Secondly, because of this, hesitation has become a habit. Even at the beginning of a shooting session when I’m fresh and relaxed it takes a while to complete the shot.

To resolve this issue, my coach has recommended the following:

For strength training, it’s back on the reversals again. In the space of a month I’ve gone from managing eight 15 second holds (with the formaster device) to thirteen 30 second holds. I should easily hit 20 by the end of the month, when I will choose between pushing through to 30 reps or switching to the 42lb @ 28in limbs I used years ago for reversals. Back when I trained with these limbs (before a non-archery related injury) I was doing twenty 30-second reversals at a draw weight of at least 50lbs. My alignment was very poor, but I was shooting well anyway because I could handle my (then 41lb) bow easily.

To deal with the psychological side of things, Harry has recommended blank boss. I don’t shoot blank boss every time I shoot (I can’t, as my main club doesn’t have room in the shooting hall to dedicate one boss to it) but I try to do it at least once a week. When shooting blank boss my goal is to shoot quickly, getting that arrow away as soon as possible as part of a smooth, flowing shot. The idea is simple - if I can learn exactly how it feels to shoot every shot without hesitation then when I shoot on a target face I will stop worrying about when that clicker is going to drop and concentrate entirely on the feel.

And yes, I am reaping the benefits. If I shoot blank boss once a week I can carry that feeling over to shooting on a target, and the tighter groups and easier feel are positive reinforcement. The strength training is also helping a huge amount and I no longer feel knackered at the end of a shooting session, even when the hesitation bug has had quite a hold on me.

[geoffretired]

Johnk, Thanks for the detailed and useful post. I can understand the high poundage being part of the problem with a recurve. I can wind up the release aid till I feel unable to pull through but at present it is set well below that. I feel sure this is a problem in my mind; worrying over something that is better left alone. I need to relax as your coach and others advise.
Thanks again.

[Murray]

Originally Posted by JohnK

Firstly, I’m not quite strong enough to handle the draw weight of the bow (approx 43lbs). I can get to full draw, but completing the shot is a bit of a struggle.

This struggle is only in the mind of the archer, not the muscles. What you're saying is you can draw 24 inches (or whatever) to your face quite hapilly, but the last 1/16" is too much? Try this - come to full draw, then deliverately pull the arrow another half an inch or more. Most can do it, not unsurprisingly.

What we tend to do is:
A. slow down to the point of a stop, and be so anxious about the clicker that we subconsciously tense contrary muscles to make it harder to restart the shot.
or...
B. Get tired and allow the shoulder to rise, counteracting any "pull".
or...
C. "anticipate the clicker", which can cause a bit of a collapse, then another stretch and anticipate... resulting in a pretty sawing motion
or...
D. ANY COMBINATION OF THE ABOVE

having struggled for nearly 3 years with clicker hesitation, I'm now nearly on top of it and I can honestly say, the confidence and belief in finishing the shot usually makes the shots *much* easier to finish... whereas I felt before I was struggling physically, now I just finish the shot and there's no drama (most of the time!) - difference is not physical conditioning, it's attitude, confidence and belief.

Originally Posted by JohnK

Secondly, because of this, hesitation has become a habit. Even at the beginning of a shooting session when I’m fresh and relaxed it takes a while to complete the shot.

Habit is a good word. You've spent a long time reinforcing bad habits, which are now ingrained in the process. I'd be surprised if it's physical conditioning, it's more mental conditioning IMO. A MUCH harder habit to break. Of course, physical conditioning can only help your confidence and make sure you don't tire (resulting in a loss of confidence)

Originally Posted by JohnK

To deal with the psychological side of things, Harry has recommended blank boss.

Fine... until you go back to a target and find the process starts all over again. IMO, a blank boss/target combination is much better... shoot blank until it's sweet, then shoot target until it starts to bite, back to blank... repeat, resulting in lengthening the "comfort zone" at the target.

You don't have to shoot blank, eyes shut will do the same job, or even just taking off the sight! If you simply shoot at target "because I've got a target up", then you risk reinforcing the psychological issues again - IMO, it's important to minimise those times and get back to blank/no sight as soon as you can in order to keep the positive reinforcement.

Another good excercise IMO is to spend half a dozen or a dozen arrows drawing through the clicker, with no intention of shooting, then letting down... this worked well for me to find out "where the clicker is" when I'm not thinking about/no expectation of finishing the shot.

Similar to others, my most controlled shots are when I see the click as the middle, not the end, of the shot. I have to have a "finish the shot" portion after the click to ensure I'm not simply reacting to that noise.

Sorry I can't comment on compound, but I'm sure the symptoms are similar - a quiet, relaxed mind is necessary while squeezing the shot subconciously to remove that hesitation/anticipation.