full draw posture decision making

[geoffretired]

I could do with clearing up, in my own mind, the whole process of full draw posture and reaching an "ideal" for any individual.
I understand Draw Force Line, bow arm alignment, string to face contacts.(I think)
With a compound bow I can adjust the bow's draw length to give a good bow arm alignment and a string contact with the front of the jaw. With a recurve, I would expect the clicker position to give an equivalent set up.If the clicker is positioned(temporarily) it could allow the same bow arm alignment and an equivalent (not the same obviously) string contact with the front of the jaw.(please don't start a clicker thread if my idea is completely wrong)
With the compound and a d-loop or rope release, I can adjust the position of the drawing elbow, independently of the bow's draw length. This will allow the draw elbow to reach a position on the draw force line or just before according to some.
With the recurve, there is no d-loop or rope release to allow this independent adjustment of the draw elbow position in relation to the DFL.
This is the aspect I would like to clarify, with help, please.
For many recurve archers all aspects of the full draw posture seem to fit right from the start, some seem to struggle, and when I'm the coach, I struggle too with some more extreme cases.
I have thought for some time that the amount of head turning, towards the target, could help. I'm beginning to think that could be wrong.
So, full draw posture; where to start and how to adjust the basics to fit the individual??

[moo-mop]

Geoff have a look at total archery and compare the pictures of the real archers from above with the diagram. All of them have the elbow outside of this line on a page extolling how it must be on the line. I've seen many other examples of this when I can get pictures from above of the very good archers, and only a few that are near of behind the line without doing something else considered 'bad' - you can do it if you lean back a bit (a la Rick McKinney).
I don't know what's right but do believe forcing things into line can't be the answer, and that's the only way I've got near this, but thankfully I was talked out of it by someone I trusted. Marcus might be able to help you more.
I think head turning does help and is necessary though.

[Chris B]

you can try touching the string off to the side of your chin, rather than on the front. but try not to touch the string round to the side of the chin.
(i know; its a poor distinction, between the side of the front of the chin, and the front of the side of this chin.. =S what if your chin is round?!)

there was a long thread about the string contact point quite a while ago, called "breaking the rules" or something. the gyst of it was that adjusting string contact wasn't very helpful for getting better alingment, and in the extreme that it was round to the side of the chin it would cause inconsistencies. still, putting it slightly off to the side is worth a try. it might get you better alignment..

[geoffretired]

Thanks Moo-mop and ChrisB,
I appreciate the idea of not forcing and the front of chin etc.
Not forcing it, is really where my question comes form. For some the "ideal" posture would have to be forced, for some it seems to just happen straight away.
With the compound there is some slack in the system which can, to some extent, be taken up with d-loop length and release aid design. Sort the front end, sort the draw elbow, fill the gap with a d-loop that fits.
How does the recurve archer fill that gap? It seems like the rotation of the head towards the target by greater or lesser amounts, but I'm not at all sure that I'm right

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by Yorker

At the start it is all about what the arms are doing and once they are going properly you can fix things like the typical front shoulder malarky.

I basically don't worry about it too too much as if top top archers aren't doing it then I'm following a proven technique.

A very recent change I've been asked to make is to raise my drawing elbow which apparently means the drawing arm can get more round - however I've not got into this yet and although I thought it was a minor change it has made my scores plummet and it's all too near competitions right now... maybe I'll get back to your later.

[Murray]

IMO getting the shoulders into as nice a line as possible is step one. (ideally a straight line between both shoulder joints and the grip pivot point but physiological factors will have an impact)

Fiddling with the line of the elbow thereafter can easily be done without affecting draw length much, but will have a significant effect on scapula position and muscle group usage.

Head position should be "as straight as possible without straining neck, and providing good string picture".

Getting the shoulder alignment right in the early days (whilst still using lighter bows) will pay benefits.

YMMV, etc.

[moo-mop]

Yorker,
The coach I have had advising me has also coached someone who has done 1300 with a full time computing job and in the past has shot for GB, he is not a novice coach and finding advice I can trust is highly important to me. He is also not the first of the very few coaches that I trust who has said this (the other is a highly respected coach who now does gb juniors).
I'm sorry but for me I do think about all advice, probably too much , and my elbow is/was lower than all international archers, so therefore I am/was not doing a proven technique (it more or less level with the arrows when viewed from the side). I'm not talking about sticking it right in the air like a Butch Johnson, I'm talking about a minor raising as you get to full draw.

Again look at TA about this and compare what is said with the actual pictures of real life archers (ignore the dotted lines in this case as they aren't on the arrow - you wouldn't get away with that in a science publication).

[geoffretired]

Thanks Yorker, Murray and Moo-mop again.
If I pick up on Murray's post, perhaps that will help me and others to get the clarification I feel I need.
Both shoulders and grip pivot point in one line. That sounds to me like the Power triangle I read about some time ago.(the other two sides of that triangle being the draw force line as far as the draw elbow plus the draw upper arm.) I can see the logic in that.
From there it seems to be the draw elbow that is sorted next. I see the draw length will not change much as the draw elbow moves round the last few degrees but the scapula position will.
Viewed from above, moving the draw elbow those last few degrees, will also move the draw force line a little closer to the line of the bow arm. That, I think, will influence the amount of head turn required to give a string picture that is simple/safe to reproduce.
So far, I hope I have understood correctly.
The next stage still has me confused. If an archer has a short forearm relative to the upper arm, the draw hand will land further back along the jaw, if all other aspects remain equal. Contacting the string on the side of the jaw is not good, I'm told. So, does the head turn less so the front of the jaw moves back towards the string?

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

If an archer has a short forearm relative to the upper arm

IMHO this exactly is it - I think most archers have this sort of structure, indeed most people. I've seen stick diagram where they've drawn this and clearly the lines of the upper and lower arm are different lengths in the two positions! And you're also right about the head. I've run into this - I don't let the string go further back along the jaw so I've run into not being able to see the target at 90m (ie my nose in the way)!
So now I let the elbow stick out of the line a bit and don't worry - at least not much, but as I say I've had advice which may help align things somewhat differently with a drawing elbow move, so hopefully I can still get the jaw/head thing turned toward the target. I've just chosen a really bad time to experiment, so I don't know yet.

[geoffretired]

Thanks again Moo-mop.
It seems, the more closely we try to get to the biomechanical "ideal"; the more variations there are in the beginners.
Perhaps we should measure these beginners, like they did/ do in some countries to find potential gold medalists in all sorts of Olympic events.
If they don't measure up; send them to a rival club!!