collapse of form

[Beardy]

Well, there I was, crusing for a Portsmouth PB, CRUSING I say, when 18 arrows from the end it all went south :cry 520 was easily doable, but then I shot 25, 23 followed by 21, 18! I couldn't work out wtf was wrong, so I adjusted my sights and finished with 27, 24. I ended up with 502, 1 less than my pb.
Two weeks ago I was ready to sell my kit, when I discovered A PROBLEM. To cut a long story short, that's what I did with my arrows, only by half a inch, but my shooting was back where it was before we came in doors. Last night as I finished the round, I was composing the ad in my head.
Discussing this as others were finishing off, it was suggested that the problem was a raising leading shoulder. So I put my sights back where they were and followed his advise to push forward with my leading hand as this would stop the shoulder from raising. My arrows were back in the Gold and Read instead of the black.
It would seem then, that my front shoulder is raising as I become fatigued, which I'm sure is not uncommon. What I'd like, if possible, is some advice on exercises to strengthen this weakness, so that I can shoot a full 6 dozen without a collapse of form. Any offers

Thanks

PAul
I

[King Custard]

Deep empowering zen breaths and learn to fully relax and feel your shoulders drop and pull down between shots, take plenty of time. Six dozen is only a lot when you are going too fast...then as a last resort...gym work lol.
Could you benefit from moving the clicker a touch forward?- or are you already very comfortable with your length?

[Old Bloke]

Another member for Pantsville Archery Club?

[JohnK]

I reckon you need a good, recommended and trusted coach to have a look at your form in person, especially your shoulder alignment and bow hand position, and to give you a simple, positive action plan for improvement, one step at a time. Fitness will certainly improve things as well (especially reversal training - a search of the forum should help), but that should go hand in hand with good first-hand advice.

Good luck and good shooting

[archer_thom]

"Get a coach" - Oh for goodness sake...

If your form is collapsing at the end of a round then it could be fatigue but more likely a loss of muscle memory. Shooting more arrows is great advice in the long run but the most important thing to do now is to know what to do when it does happen.

If your shoulder is rising it will always happen when you get tired - if you get tired after 50, 100, 150, 200... tiredness is always a problem. Therefore BE PREPARED with a simple thing to focus on when it happens. My advice for a rising bow shoulder is to focus on pressing the bottom of your hand into the grip - this draws the shoulder back down and should help you out a little.

[JohnK]

Why is a recommendation to consult a good coach in person poor advice? My bow shoulder used to rise and it was nothing to do with strength, conditioning or not pushing towards the target - it was because it was poorly positioned.

Without seeing Beardy shoot now none of us can really judge whether alignment isn't an issue as well: hence my comment. Not sure why anyone would have a problem with that.

[archer_thom]

Consult a good coach, yes, but unfortunately despite seeing many in my career I have found that many (even some national ones) do not know their lats from their elbow. Furthermore many seem to think that archers should all shoot the same way, and still more insist on pushing their view even if it is uncomfortable to the archer or even when they have been asked not to. Less shocking but just as annoying is the tendency to see too small a picture and to keep harping on about a particular thing even if something else is obviously a problem, and the constant "you're not doing it right" is an assault on the archers confidence.

Therefore while a good coach is an absolutely invaluable tool a poor coach is like shooting with someone tapping your longrod at odd intervals, so I cannot recommend to someone that they take that risk.

[JohnK]

Originally Posted by archer_thom

Therefore while a good coach is an absolutely invaluable tool a poor coach is like shooting with someone tapping your longrod at odd intervals, so I cannot recommend to someone that they take that risk.

Well yes, hence why I advised finding a good, recommended and trusted coach. In other words, I think I pretty much covered that

Originally Posted by Yorker

Presuming he has been taught properly how to shoot in the first place...

That's a presumption, and by definition we cannot be sure of that. I shot 569 on a Portsmouth with what I know now to be bad form, and it was only when I read Total Archery and threads on the Aussie Archery Forum that I started to realise what I was doing wrong with my bow shoulder, despite all the coaching I had had until then.

Beardy - what do you reckon? Have you had any specific advice other than that given above?

[WhitehartFB]

May be the shoulder raising is not all down to fatigue but the way the shot is set up, the stance and actual technique drawing through the clicker.

I have had a problem with my bow elbow for sometime, today for the first time ever the pain was too much and I retired from a shoot.

Whilst I was packing away a renowned local coach had a chat and in an empty squash court (no arrows ) we actually discussed and worked on a few ideas to sort it out and it transpires that the way I was setting up my bow arm and front shoulder (which I felt was correct) was actually making the problem worse. In 20 minutes, I now have a new routine to work on to set the shot up and I feel no pain what so ever.

IMO good coaches can see beyond what the problem appears to be and they consider all avenues before making a diagnosis.

[Beardy]

Thanks to all that replied, for taking the time, I'll answer your points, but please forgive me if I don't address you personally. I do value the input, and I don't want you to think I'm ungrateful.

Have I been taught right? Well, I was taught by a chap, who was at the time an archery leader, though he is very keen and is continuing his training to become a coach. I continue to attend his classes at the local sports centre (where I initially learned) and we are both committee members of the same club. He has a particular interest in KSL methods, which is good, because after reading about it, it seems sensible to me at least.

Last summer I reached the dizzy heights of 1st Class, my first season, so it sems the foundations he laid are reasonably solid.

I originally shot X7s, but mid season I acquired a second hand set of Navs. Coming in doors I decided to get the X7s out again. My shooting was okish, but I didn't think I was achieving the acuraccy I thought I should after a good summer season. After teh christmas break (about 5 weeks) My shooting was total pants, and went form bad to worse.

Two weeks ago out of sheer desperation I got my navs out half way through a round. Without changing the tune of my bow, I immediatly added 4 or 5 an end. On investigation, my navs were over half an inch shorter than my X7s. So i got the X7s cut down.

Three weeks ago I shot a portsmouth of 483. On Thursday I shot 502, but collapsed three and a half dozen in. This prompted teh current thread. On Thursday as we were packing up I spoke to Richard Wilkins about the colapse and he suggested that the problem was the shoulder riasing, sighting that it was the most common problem, particularly towards teh end of a round. I listened to him, and posted here for further advice.

Today a shot a 523 (yeah!) thats nearly 20 on my previouls personal best and a very nearly 50 on what I was shooting only 3 weeks ago.

I slowed down, resting the bow on teh front stab between each arrow. I tried to relax my shoulders each time, before I raised my bow. And most importantly, I tried to be aware of what my front shoulder was doing. All this helped, as I did not collapse towards the end (though I don't thing I'll ever know what caused my 6th arrow to score 1!) and even managed to get my best half dozen in teh penultimet set (57)

That said, I think that Johnk is right, and I need to talk to a good coach, and will start with my current one, as one day he will be an excellent coach. The sad fact is that I will also need to get fitter (getting fitter isn't sad, needing to is!) and probably loose some weight as well.

But once again, thank you for your input, it is gratefully accepted.

Kind regards,

PAul.