On the Back - or off the shoulder

[King Custard]

How many of us actually think we are shooting, drawing, releasing off the back...but really we are not- a fair bit of weight is still on the shoulder?

I have just spent an hour or so really trying to get the weight of the bow onto my back, spawned by a thread started by Yorker I believe, intensely focusing on feel of the back muscles.

I have tried many draw methods, but whatever you'd call it, I've seen some archers predraw while still pointing at the ground...with a very high elbow.
With a momentary pause they seem to be getting the weight on to their backs at this point...some even before levelling the bow towards the target.

Have I guessed right? that this very high elbowed predraw is actually allowing them to get more 'feel' of the back tension?
Because I Have found this in my case.

Previously I would have sworn that I was 'getting the bow on my back'...and I've had no-one say otherwise....but by predrawing high elbowed while pointing the bow down, and my draw arm coming emphatically round and down, there is a decidedly better 'feel' in the trapeziuseses.....better alignment...and surprisingly a change in the position of bareshafts to fletched ( they impact a touch stiffer) - (I'll work that one out later).
Group size at close range is 'expensively' better, for which Im glad to have some cheap practice arrows to smash.

Only problem if atall is that now my alignment has changed, so must my foot position, as the string path is very close to my arm otherwise- a more open rather than square stance alows for a little more arm clearance.

It must always be a good thing to decide what the focus of a practice session is...to check each component part of your technique...to adopt some change perhaps to magnify the point being examined.
I can achieve better line, a longer drawlength, better stability through the shoulder girdle, more feel and consistency, tighter groups and smashed arrows..... all for checking that Im truly shooting off of my back - which I ashamedly admit- I wasn't!..not fully anyway!

Do you conduct specific checks on items of your form- to see what can be improved?
Or do you 'just shoot'...hoping that magically everything will come together on the day you really need it to?

[geoffretired]

Hi KC,
I will answer your last questions first. No, I don't just shoot. I do focus on one aspect at a time. The problem is, knowing which one to focus on. Sometimes the choice is so straightforward; sometimes the fault in my shooting is something unknown to me.
I was once told by a memebr of the Scottish team that you will be shooting off your back, if your draw elbow is on the draw force line. If the elbow sticks out you will have to use the muscles of the upper arm, as well as the back, to keep the string on your jaw.
For me, when the arms can relax it's a sign they are not being worked. They are the weak links in the draw. When they relax, the back muscles get on with the job, and usually they are well capable of handling the poundage.

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

I was once told by a member of the Scottish team that you will be shooting off your back, if your draw elbow is on the draw force line. If the elbow sticks out you will have to use the muscles of the upper arm, as well as the back, to keep the string on your jaw.

Often said, less often done . I have a wonderful picture of an Olympic gold medallist from above showing she for sure didn't have her elbow near this line. Also see the pictures supposedly showing this in TA - are they really on this line? Not even many great recurvers actually have this structure without doing something else considered 'bad', see the pics of Rick McKinney who is behind this line but who leans his shoulders back. Some others could just have long forearms??

[geoffretired]

Thanks for that Moo-mop. I think your post highlights something that can be overlooked. Is it really necessary to shoot as theory says we should???
Another take on the same issue is, would they have shot better had they been on "the line"???
Perhaps perfect repetition, with a less than perfect form, is better for some than perfect form used erratically?

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Perhaps perfect repetition, with a less than perfect form, is better for some than perfect form used erratically?

Probably true, but I've come to the controversial conclusion that 'on the line' re elbow is not something that can really be done by most with normal anatomy. Archers better than than me would disagree e.g. perhaps Marcus so I guess take what say as it's meant, only a personal conclusion after much study.

[King Custard]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Hi KC,
......I was once told by a member of the Scottish team that you will be shooting off your back, if your draw elbow is on the draw force line. If the elbow sticks out you will have to use the muscles of the upper arm, as well as the back, to keep the string on your jaw.......
.

Thanks Geoff - nowhere have I seen/read/heard this info (nowhere that I recall)...another gem, a diamond in fact...and so succintly put.Thanks for sharing that. Sure there's info on 'getting in line' but that rule of thumb?...No.
So often a lot of trial and error shows up gaps in knowledge and understanding that the more experienced have long since filled.

I've not understood before that shooting off of the back and the shoulder muscles would need a consistent 'balance' between the two muscle groups - get it all on the back...and you need no inconsistent 'balance'!

Some time back I had considered after being told that getting into line was something I couldn't achieve due to my being NOT the perfect shape/bone sizes for an archer...maybe I/they were wrong...
now lets go trash some more arrows!

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by Yorker

The perfect line people refer to I believe is the line across the shot. That is if I am at full draw currently when I get it right, my shoulderblades are set, my shoulders are even in line and that line is paralel or almost with the line of the arrow, the arrow in turn being in line with my front hand and the rear elbow.
Here is a reasonable video of it:
YouTube - Shooting july 11th archery team usa best method

This is a bad misunderstanding of the BEST technique, if that is indeed the technique you are referring to, regarding your "perfect line".
The BEST technique advocates that an extention of the line between the shoulders passes through the bow hand (at least, when viewed from above.)

Here is a good video that shows how close in your bow shoulder needs to be to the string, to achieve the illusive structural 'triangle';
YouTube - Tyler Benner archery 24 Feb 08 Technique and Training

I'm not commenting on the relative efficiency or efficacy of any technique, nor on Kisik Lee or the BEST method.
I should just say that if anyone can find a good video of the Korean Lee Chang Hwan, that guy is shooting totally off the back. he's in this video;the guy shooting the W&W Infinite near the start, but its not a good technical video; YouTube - Korean Shooters

[steve58]

Looking at the videos of Erika it strikes me that she is setting the bow arm and shoulder and then all the movement takes place on the other side. Especially striking on the rear view of her shooting recurve where the shoulder blade seems especially clearly isolated. Am I looking at this right? Or am I missing the work being done with the bow shoulder, ie the push part of "push - pull"? Or am I posting out of my bottom... again?

[Erika]

I don't do 'push/pull'. The front shoulder is just a platform around which everything else moves.

[King Custard]

Originally Posted by Erika

I don't do 'push/pull'. The front shoulder is just a platform around which everything else moves.

aha- one day even I might make a coach......I was just thinking that same thing...'there's no push!'...and I can't tell when the draw stops being on the shoulder and moves to the back muscles. Very fluid , technically wonderful as far as I can see...I think I've found a new role model to include ( though I do like to push , myself)