tuning with a rigid button

[geoffretired]

If a recurve archer starts their tuning with a rigid button, and the arrow on dead centre shot(not off set away from the sight window)using arrows that are a good match, the bare shaft should land close to the fletched one, yes?
By speeding up the bow, or slowing it down, the bare shafts can be made to land even closer, if they were not ideal the first time.
The next stage might be to adjust the sight to get the group to land where they are being aimed. Having set the sight to give the desired results, where should the sight be in relation to the arrow? My guess is that the sight will be almost directly above the arrow.Perhaps not quite so close if the string picture is off to one side of the sight. (How far above will depend on the distance being shot.)
Is it possible to have well matched arrows, as indicated by this tuning method, and for the sight to be noticeably off to one side of the arrow at the stage I have just mentioned? My guess is that it would be very unlikely. I have never used this method, but would like to learn about what to look for at the different stages.
Thanks

[MarkH]

Hi Geoffretired,
I thought the rigid button tuning was to establish optimum group size whilst changing centreshot from right of centreshot to left of centreshot, not for bareshaft/fletched shaft comparison.
Also, what happens when you have finished tuning and you replace the solid button with a spring?

Mind you, you've got me interested. If its not peeing it down tomorrow I might have a play.

Mark H

[Groundhog]

Geoff, it looks like you are referring to James Parks method of tuning. In my opinion, the best method available.
In answer to you question about sight pin and arrow position, it will depend on several factors, for example, string picture and release. My sight pin is way to the left of the arrow (RH archer).

[King Custard]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

If a recurve archer starts their tuning with a rigid button, and the arrow on dead centre shot(not off set away from the sight window)using arrows that are a good match, the bare shaft should land close to the fletched one, yes?
By speeding up the bow, or slowing it down, the bare shafts can be made to land even closer, if they were not ideal the first time.
The next stage might be to adjust the sight to get the group to land where they are being aimed.

No- dont touch the sight yet, put the spring back into the button, at about medium-nice-??? tension and move the body of the plunger so that your arrow is 'archer-side' of the string to compensate for the button's springiness. reset your sight aperture to what is NOW above the arrow- and you'll have a fairly decent OI window picture ( aperture with string running along edge of sightring( if that is your prefference)...then tension spring to attain center hits

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Having set the sight to give the desired results, where should the sight be in relation to the arrow? My guess is that the sight will be almost directly above the arrow.

yes, almost...maybe spot on - above the TIP of the arrow

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Perhaps not quite so close if the string picture is off to one side of the sight. (How far above will depend on the distance being shot.)
Is it possible to have well matched arrows, as indicated by this tuning method, and for the sight to be noticeably off to one side of the arrow at the stage I have just mentioned? My guess is that it would be very unlikely. I have never used this method, but would like to learn about what to look for at the different stages.

Youre right again. not noticeably off- only enough so that you get a nice OI picture. To still be shooting through the center of the bow you would adjust spring tension to group in the xring ( both bare and fletched)..A walkback confirms any further adjustments to be made to the button ie: / or \ - adjust spring tension....any curved shape( like a 'c' or a backards 'c') to the drop of arrows indicates button body position needing adjustment. Often an 's' shape or backward 's' occurs usually indicating both adjustments are needed -tension and position, but do the position first till you get a straight line with or without curves.....and then tension. Note button body position is very critical- a tenth of a turn may be all that is needed- even that can take you past the perfect position.

To completely get any curves out of your 'arrow drop line' May take many walkbacks and tiny alterations.. tension on the other hand is simple and quicker to adjust.

This stiff spring bareshaft tuning is great at getting things set up 'well' with one minor problem to address:

Where you put your aperture for a good string picture MUST enable you to still shoot through the center of the bow and be able to clearly see the string against the edge of the aperture, be able to hold the apeture over the target and center and focus on the gold. If you haven't got a good string picture at this point you have little choice but to move the aperture a couple of threads, which means you are fractionally shooting off center(rarely much of a problem) or adjust tension on the spring to give greater leeway to move the aperture.
it's then a trade off....sight picture perfect, or button tension at 'optimal' point to dampen dodgy releases.
Personally I would go for string picture perfect If I had to choose (and I rarely if ever do) and work on my form so that I dont rely on the button ironing out wildly varying levels of string torque anyway.

I have set up bows precisely that give a very slightly awkward OI string picture, perfectly tuned, but awkward on the eye! What im saying is that for MY perfection I would 'skew' the tune very slightly in preference of a comfortable string picture it will in the long run produce better scores.

[buzz lite beer]

rigid button method of tuning does not reduce group sizes

[King Custard]

Appologies Geoff - just reread that post and realised that there's information in there that you thouroughly know- better than I do i'll bet!
May be of help to 'fill out' the topic perhaps for newbs.

[King Custard]

Originally Posted by buzz lite beer

rigid button method of tuning does not reduce group sizes

Too true - it couldn't possibly achieve that....all it would show is your group sizes without the helpful 'suspension' from the spring.

[buzz lite beer]

I will say it again but it will fall on the same deaf ears, you can achieve good arrow flight over a range of arrow spines, bow weight, point weight, and all the variables anyone can be persuaded to worry about, you just don't get away with as many human error variables, they need to be individually assessed/ diagnosed to get the best score per dozen.

[Chris B]

buzz lite beer, if you don't mind me asking, briefly, how do you set up your bow?

[buzz lite beer]

briefly! initial set up 6-12m bare to fletch comparison for nock point, then walk back 30-65m for plunger depth and pressure if I can get arrows to group with a spread of less than 80mm width over this range that's me just about done , thing is I know how I shoot and what arrows i need to achieve such a "tune" and then I will tweak to see if I can reduce the effects of the inevitable human error irrespective of bare to fletched shaft impacts.