Is a change, as good as the rest?

[Old Bloke]

When I was playing semi-pro football up in B'ham, I had two sets of football boots..one for hard ground, one for soft. When I was playing badminton for Worcester, Redditch and Barnt Green, I had six rackets, strung for use on either plastic or feather and strung with the indoor climate in mind..those strings could go like rubber bands in some halls. I believe that Tennis players also have different tension in their strings for different climatic conditions. When I was playing Hockey, I had a heavy headed stick when the ground was wet/waterlogged and I hear that racing cars have different tyres depending on the type of track and weather conditions.
Then there is Outdoor Target Archery...I often wonder if people use the same arrow all year round or find different types for what is best suitable for a range of conditions? I wonder if our top archers have different arrow set ups or use arrows that are a *jack of all trades and a master of none*?
Any thoughts anyone?

[Little Miss Purple]

Would you lose the 'belief / understanding' that you would not be using the same equipment regularly and therefor not having the same consistancy?

Interesting question OB!!

[SimonW]

Dave,

I admire your dedication to eak the last bit of performance from your equipment in all possible conditions - I just wish you'd share your findings with the world (or at least me!!) so that we may all benefit.

That said, I am absolutely certain that equipment plays about a 5% part in a top performance score up to at least the 1300 level (and probably well past it).

With self belief anything is possible. Sure - if you have any doubts (and the first thing to get the blame is usually the weather or the equipment) then self belief and thus confidence dissapear very quickly.

I've seen people who are either too dumb (or maybe smart?) to realise something is wrong post a score that shouldn't be possible (knowing what is wrong). I only draw the line here for failing/failed equipment.

Lets take a few examples:

I've stood behind one of our current top archers and studied their arrow flight and it was attrocious - the back end of the arrow was all over the place (consistently) . They still posted a > 650 Fita 720.

We measured the limb alignment of someone this indoor season and found it was 6mm out between top & bottom limb - 6mm!! This person posted consistent > 575 scores having absolute faith in their kit (even if it was wonky!!).

Darrell Pace shot his 1341 in Japan shooting arrows he hadn't shot before. He can't have had any time to tune them in or try all of the differing permutations of spine and pile weight.

I really don't think there is a magic secret for recurve archery (people did study the problem very carefully and two things resulted: the compound bow and the release aid).

I am sure that if (like sailing?) we all had to shoot the same equipment type (only variation being arrow length, draw weight and bow length) then the best archers would still be the best archers.

What do you think?

Simon

[tel]

My first thought is that its complicated enough doing the indoor/outdoor split (if that is your thing) without going down the weather route. Of course this is only applicable to the masses - there may be some that can benefit from taking this into account - but how often would you need to make the change based on variable conditions?

[Old Bloke]

I am not a target archer. I am a field archer. I have dabbled at target archery and have been successful at it, but because of my love for field archery, only did target archery when there were no field shoots! I only got interested in target archery proper when there was a leader board and my name wasn't on it......after that, I think they call it power archery!
I muse....anyway, throughout my archery career I've worked at the three parts of archery, the Mechanical, the Mental and the Physical and became astute over my 50 years in archery in all as experience is everything.
Today, as I reach the autumn of my years in competitive archery, by that I mean International Archery, I wish to compete in Target archery and have an aim (no pun) to win the British Outdoor target championships, because if I do, then it would mean that I have won every National Championship of all the governing bodies, in indoor, outdoor and field in the recurve bow.
I am setting about this task in just the same way as I have always done to win those other National Championships, as I can see no reason why the *method* will not work again. Within the method, is still a learning but a new learning as to what makes the Simon Terry's of this world shoot a 1360 FITA and as such one has to explore all possibilities as to how on that one day he shot that score. The work I am doing is on-going and might take 4 or 5 years as I relearn some forgotten skills when doing target archery. Many moons ago, when I was shooting some dandy target scores, I eneterd the British Target Champs, and at the time had the bow set up so that I could shoot the following Alloy arrows..2013, 2014, or 2114. On the day after listening to the weather forcast, I chose the 2013 as it was lightweight and the forcast was for calm and sunny conditions. After 4 doz, I was top of the leader board, but then the wind got up and started to lose points to Ian Pugh. There was nothing I could do but watch points being lost and alas finnished 10th when I really should have won..or at least be placed...but Ian did shoot exceptionaly well that day and got very close to 1200 for a York (In 1984 ..I think). having just come out of the woods so to speak, with a near perfect set up for field archery (it will be revisited), I now am working through all the aspects of the three groups above. After 50 years, I think I know how to shoot an arrow...I think I can handle the mental thingy..but the kit is still a big question mark and needs to be explored. I have already changed my technique to accommodate the small diameter tubes we all now shoot and as such is now paying dividends, but thinking aloud and from a past experience concerning a choice of arrows on the day...it got me wondering if any of top archers change arrows because of the prevailing conditions or do they just plonk away with what they have? For me it would be no big issue to have a diifferent string and a different button all set up and ready to go when reviewing the weather before the start whistle. If it is the case that our top archers are only using one set of arrows for all seasons, then surely, they will be losing points unneccessarily? Many other sports have changes of kit because of the weather...why not archers? I for one will look very hard at having a very windy set and a not so windy set and over a period of time compare the results..then I will know which set works best at any given time.
That way, I will have absolute confidence in all of my kit...simply because I will know what works and what doesn't rather than thinking....I wonder *if*..which is a recipe for shredding confidence(s).
The start of the relearning took place at Cleve last sunday and it was good that there was an irksome wind...not windy..but irksome. I shot there using the very lightweight ACE 520 (100 grains up front) and witht he wind likened them to the 2013 I shot all those years ago. Great when there was no wind..crap in a breeze. I shot with another recurve archer, who also shot carbon ACE, and had a very tidy style..very tidy..but over the day you could see the change in body language, when even though with a super style, his arrows went anywhere but the middle..when in reality his style was putting them there. It was pretty obvious that his arrows were too light also, and with only 4 years under his belt, probably did not the experience to do anything about it.

[Munsterman]

Longbow archers routinely use different bows for indoors/outdoors and often for different distances too. I can think of 2 local recurve archers that have complete set ups for different distances. When they compete, they have the largest wheeled cases that I have ever seen. Both have had a moderate level of success.

[Huffy]

I have seen a couple of the local archers with notebooks detailing changes in their Beiter pressure buttons for varying wind and other conditions but have not been aware of archers changing anything else.

Best wishes, Mark

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by SimonW

I am sure that if (like sailing?) we all had to shoot the same equipment type

hold on there - I believe the best sailors try out several of these identical masts to pick out the stiffest, same as the best at archers try hundreds of arrows to pick out the most consistent. [edit: and actually this is a really good analogy to what OB asking as when you're sailing you're constantly fiddling with your kit to adjust for the wind and waves. That's a good deal of the skill of eg laser sailing].

Originally Posted by SimonW

people did study the problem very carefully

There's actually very very few published papers that I can find, I do wish these studies weren't so under wraps.

Originally Posted by Old Bloke

but the kit is still a big question mark and needs to be explored.

Exactly... but I give up on finding answers for my level of archery.

I always argue that most of what is said about equipment is unproven coincidence based on happening to shoot well with that set-up.

My belief has its advantages and disadvantages. I always feel that 5-20 points are out there that I would never be able to find, but I also think well not to worry too much if my bracing height or nocking point is a bit different this time, it's no matter very much.

Anyway as I can't really show difference between whole spines of arrows in good conditions I know I've got no hope of distinguishing such things in poor conditions when scores go down and fluctuate so much more and any difference in kit would be masked - it's an experiment too far. Those that are better than me could tell better.

To be able to this you need to eliminate some variables I think OB. Namely you need a machine to simulate your recurve shooting but without the inconsistency.

[gtek]

Darrell Pace shot his 1341 in Japan shooting arrows he hadn't shot before. He can't have had any time to tune them in or try all of the differing permutations of spine and pile weight.

In the interest of accurate story-telling, Darrell was using arrows he was completely familiar with- Easton 2114 X7's- it was a new Shibuya sight (with no marks) which he was using.

Darrell simply measured the distance from the top of the shaft to the sight bar for each distance and made his marks on the new sight in the same relative location as the old sight.

Weather was perfect- overcast and no wind. One can only imagine the score if he had perfect sight marks. It was a score 10 years before its time.

[Marcus26]

Originally Posted by Old Bloke

Then there is Outdoor Target Archery...I often wonder if people use the same arrow all year round or find different types for what is best suitable for a range of conditions? I wonder if our top archers have different arrow set ups or use arrows that are a *jack of all trades and a master of none*?
Any thoughts anyone?

I have different arrows for Target, Field and Indoor based on maximizing my performance in each.
Harder to do this with recurve though as with compound I don't have to retune the bow.