Coaching Problem - Form Issue ?

[geoffretired]

I would say, holding the bowarm static till the arrow lands, requires muscles to be brought into play at exactly the same time as the string is released. Not only at the same time but to the same extent as the muscles used just prior to release.To get the timing right and the amount of muscle tension to match is likely to create a situation where the archer(probbably unknowingly) will start to tighten those muscles in advance of the release in order to be ready in time.

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by Marcus26

the release fingers relax only slightly allowing the string to leave the hand.

On a technicality:
I'm almost sure that I've read a paper where there was great evidence that the fingers were opened actively (ie not relaxed) in all archers and that the difference was that Olympic archers did so far far more quickly after the clicker went than the likes of me.
I think they above is what it great archers describe as what it feels like you do to achieve the good results, ie don't fling out your fingers.

[Marcus26]

Originally Posted by moo-mop

On a technicality:
I'm almost sure that I've read a paper where there was great evidence that the fingers were opened actively (ie not relaxed) in all archers and that the difference was that Olympic archers did so far far more quickly after the clicker went than the likes of me.
I think they above is what it great archers describe as what it feels like you do to achieve the good results, ie don't fling out your fingers.

No that is incorrect. If you look at high speed video then you see the string curve out from the fingers and away from the hand well before the fingers actually open.
If you watch a REALLY good finger release the fingers don't actually open.

Check out Park Sung Hyun as the world's best example.
YouTube - Park Sung Hyun

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by Marcus26

If you watch a REALLY good finger release the fingers don't actually open.

Check out Park Sung Hyun as the world's best example.
YouTube - Park Sung Hyun

I did not base what I said on video but on published peer-reviewed data showing electromyograms (or whatever they are called) in the finger muscles. Of course not all published data is correct but you get my point... I also doubt you could see it as sp220 described.

[Furface]

Interesting POV SP. I suspect that what the pictures show is relaxed hands at various stages of being flipped out of the way by the string, before returning to the typical "loose claw" position of the relaxed hand. As there is some change in the muscles of the hand, this would surely show up on the scientific measurements - are there different types of charge involved in a "relax" action and a positive "release" action?

[Marcus26]

Originally Posted by sp220

PS: marcus - I know what you have said is entirely correct, Im not trying to question it, im just trying to gain more knowledge as to why some very very good archers do seem to have a release that seems to come away from the face more than what would be taught as good form, and perhaps why the fingers dont seem (in picture anyway) to relax completely...

Because there is only one archer close to perfection in the world, and it ain't them.
My dad is an excellent recurver, was one of the best in the world in his prime. His release is as sideways as it could be. He's just bloody good at it.

It was described to me as "You want 100% required tension to hold the string at full draw, and then drop it by 2% to release. Most people hold at 150-200%+ at full draw and try to drop to 0%."
When I got back home I tried it and got it right straight away (however in eth garage and under pressure are different things). Easy to do. Most don't work on it.

[moo-mop]

Ok, I have found the paper I remembered:

H. Ertan et al. / Human Movement Science 22 (2003) 37–45

There is even a pdf here:

www.archery.metu.edu.tr/docs/articleinhms.pdf

Having skimmed through it again, it does look like the authors set out to answer just the question we are discussing, and came to the conclusion that both beginner and elite archers do contract the muscles that open the fingers.

Having said that, the contraction only seems to last for a fraction of a second, before relaxing, so I'm not sure how much that would actually open the fingers.

[not dead yet]

in vegas they take the release down on high speed video to 3000 frames per second, i have mine on dvd..

as my fingers start to move the arrow has gone, crap release ( always the same crap release i may add ).but the hand moves about .25" as i'm releasing and thats it the arrow has gone ..left the bow , on its way out of the building,

dave g from cumbria, his release, well he was british indoor champ etc

his fingers dance.lol

[moo-mop]

Originally Posted by sp220

It makes sense to me.

I am glad I was right about the forearm, it's been some time since I leanrt about that.

The string pushes the fingers out of the way - in essense moving the fingers, even a short distance - whether being pushed, or actively moved by the person, the muscle MUST contract/expand on either side of the finger... otherwise the finger simply couldnt move...

So regardless of whether or not its a concious effort by the archer, an electronic signal caused by ions within the muscle will register on electrical equipment.

PS: moo - mop - its good to note the article states specifically that the flexors were never activated during the release, and electrical usage was only observed from the extensors - which (IMO - though im not a doctor) says to me that the string pushes the fingers out of the hand, causing the extensors to contract (hence recordings), but the flexors which bring the fingers back into the palm (when used that is) where never used and so were exanded with no effort from the archer - IE: were stretched purely by relaxation and force of the string...

A solid conclusion really.

I don't think that is what they're saying... I'm not an expert on this stuff, so can't be sure of all the details, but the discussion seems pretty clear.
Quoting from the article, "The findings of the current study (...) did not support the popular teaching tenet that bowstring release by successful archers is achieved by a simple relaxation mechanism that is superior to one involving a more active response of finger extensors."

They could be wrong of course, and they do mention an earlier study that this seems to contradict...

Anyhow, this is all very interesting, but I suspect that "relaxing the fingers" is the best way to think about it.

[EVC]

Originally Posted by sp220

... the muscle MUST contract/expand on either side of the finger... otherwise the finger simply couldnt move...

So regardless of whether or not its a concious effort by the archer, an electronic signal caused by ions within the muscle will register on electrical equipment. ...

I am not sure if I understood your post but AFAIR from the introductory physiology classes I took during my graduate course the electrical activity of a muscle is associated with contraction only, not relaxation. Actually the contraction is obtained by a sequence of stimuli shot by the nerves terminations of the fibers; thus a contraction is actually a group of microcontractions. The electromiogram results of the combination of the electrical activity of a multitude of fibers.

Just my $0.02.



Elder.