Leader's Course

[grimsby archer]

Originally Posted by 7,3,miss

Sort of. I am not saying that Leaders are equivalent to L2, just that their job remit - not their knowledge - is more closely aligned with L2 than L1

Under UKCC, Level 1`s should work under the supervision of a more senior coach, L2`s dont. Leaders generally work on their own without a supervising senior coach.

I am not saying that Leaders award is anywhere near the standard of a GNAS L2 but it does conform to the UKCC guidelines for L2

From what I can make out, GNAS L2 is way above the standard required of other sports L2. I have a write up somewhere from our local rag which congratulated 3 hockey coaches on gaining their L2 award. This took something like 4 days training followed by a short assessment. Not much different to leaders.


Andy

As I said, based on a misconception.
That, to me , is a very perverse way of comparing job descriptions. Rather like comparing a self employed plumber to richard branson because neither of them have bosses above them,
or comparing me to peter suk, or kisik lee or john dudley because we all coach people,
or comparing my car (fiesta 1.25 litre) to a f1 ferrarri because .....
You can't make those sorts of comparisons.

BaldEagle:
Leaders courses can be done over 4 days (not 4 weeks) usually 2 weekends with the assessment on the last day (info taken from Philip Van Buren's website Archery Training (GNAS) | Archery Coaching UK and Worldwide.)

There is also a very interesting section listing the course units description for the Leaders course Archery Training (GNAS) | Archery Coaching UK and Worldwide.

The coaches course covers child protection, anatomy, performance, analysis, basic sports psychology, involves practical experience, equipment and lots of other stuff and takes best part of a year (13 days plus exam in my case)

The leaders certificate is a very worthy qualification and the holders work very hard to achieve it and do very good work promoting archery as a result, but to say the two are equal is offensive to me.

[DaveNick]

I believe the GNAS were approached by people working in children's activity centres, holiday parcs and scouting etc to provide a course for their staff to teach archery at a have-a-go standard. However, the 4-day course is very good so the GNAS missed an opportunity for its own members which has led to this confusion.

[7,3,miss]

OK - before I start on this I want to make it quite clear to everyone that I do not see Leader as an equivalant to L2. I just wanted to point out that the job description of a leader is closer to L2 than L1

I agree that the level of knowledge required to complete L2 (coach) is far higher and goes into an awful lot more detail than a leaders course ever needs to. But...

From UKCC Level descriptor:-

The role of the Level 1 coach is to:
‘Assist more qualified coaches, delivering aspects of coaching sessions, normally under direct supervision’

The role of the Level 2 coach is to:
‘Prepare for, deliver and review coaching session(s)

I am not saying they are equal, just that the leaders job spec is closer to L2 than L1.

That, to me , is a very perverse way of comparing job descriptions. Rather like comparing a self employed plumber to richard branson because neither of them have bosses above them,

Not perverse at all really. It may be better to compare Plumber A and Plumber B. Both do the job, neither has a boss above them but one does it to a higher standard and has more knowledge than the other. Both are trained and qualified to fit washbasins. Only one however knows how to connect the taps up. I know which one I would rather have!!

The coaches course covers child protection, anatomy, performance, analysis, basic sports psychology, involves practical experience, equipment and lots of other stuff and takes best part of a year (13 days plus exam in my case)

Thats the point I was trying to make. Archery L2 (or "coach" if anyone else wants to point out that L2 Archery is not out there yet) is at a much higher level and requires (in my opinion) a higher level of commitment than many other sports.

The leaders certificate is a very worthy qualification and the holders work very hard to achieve it and do very good work promoting archery as a result, but to say the two are equal is offensive to me.

What should offend you is that your qualification is seen nationally as the equivalent of other sports L2, when in fact you are trained and assessed to a much higher level than most!!

I sort of wished I hadnt mentioned it now but I was at a meeting with the County Council, the LEA and a couple of Partnership Development Managers recently discussing how we could get Archery into more schools. The subject turned to training for staff and one of the chaps kept referring to Leader being at L2. I tried to correct him and explained the GNAS coaching structure but he insisted that, from their viewpoint, Leader and L2 were the same. I was a bit miffed at this but he said that regardless of the level of knowledge or the course content, if you are qualified to work alone then they consider you at L2.

I pointed out the differences in the knowledge requirements for archery and other sports but there was no way I was going to change his mind. In his mind - work on your own and your are at L2.

I fully agree that Leader and L2 are worlds apart in terms of knowledge required to work at each of these levels. I am in no way knocking either of these qualifications or those who hold them and have worked hard to get them. The two awards are as different as chalk and cheese and are designed to fulfill two different needs but in the minds of some (many?) who are not directly connected with the sport, there is no difference.

Cheers

Andy

[John (OSF)]

Originally Posted by 7,3,miss

Not perverse at all really. It may be better to compare Plumber A and Plumber B. Both do the job, neither has a boss above them but one does it to a higher standard and has more knowledge than the other. Both are trained and qualified to fit washbasins. Only one however knows how to connect the taps up. I know which one I would rather have!!

What about an experienced DIY'r that had the knowledge and proven ability though not the official qualification. He would probably be cheaper too !

[grimsby archer]

Perhaps to take your analagy of plumbers, we compare a time served plumber and a corgi registered plumber. Both qualified plumbers, but one with recognised and certified additional skills.
At the end of the day, it depends whether you want a tap washer replacing, or a gas boiler installing.

As for john(osf)s comment (and not really wanting to open a can of carnivorous worms) perhaps one day, like electricians, it will be illegal for unqualified "plumbers" to "plumb"

[7,3,miss]

Perhaps to take your analagy of plumbers, we compare a time served plumber and a corgi registered plumber. Both qualified plumbers, but one with recognised and certified additional skills.
At the end of the day, it depends whether you want a tap washer replacing, or a gas boiler installing.

Exactly what I meant.

As for john(osf)s comment (and not really wanting to open a can of carnivorous worms) perhaps one day, like electricians, it will be illegal for unqualified "plumbers" to "plumb"

I agree. Now go on - open that can - you know you want to!!!

Andy

[John (OSF)]

They'll always be people that'll take short cuts and work for next to nothing. They're useful so far as they generate loads of work for the real guys like myself sorry to say that some people lose their lives or property as a result of the 'cowboys' but mostly (ime) they know what they're getting into at the start .

Where this analogy falls down is that unlike select or the nic the coach courses don't guarantee a coach at the end of them, just trained raw material that may become a coach later.

(worm tin lid turned one turn )

[grimsby archer]

Originally Posted by John (OSF)

They'll always be people that'll take short cuts and work for next to nothing. They're useful so far as they generate loads of work for the real guys like myself sorry to say that some people lose their lives or property as a result of the 'cowboys' but mostly (ime) they know what they're getting into at the start .

Where this analogy falls down is that unlike select or the nic the coach courses don't guarantee a coach at the end of them, just trained raw material that may become a coach later.

(worm tin lid turned one turn )

Are you a plumber? Good plumbers are hard to find.

contract welder welds worm tin lid down permenantly and uses friends jcb to dig hole and buy under 20ft of reinforced concrete

[John (OSF)]

No GA, I'm an electrician, but regardless of all precautions I bet somebody digs it up soon

[TWIW]

Originally Posted by Bald Eagle

To my understanding, GNAS do leaders courses over 4 weeks for scout groups, guides, schools and community groups, but they are not recognised in GNAS clubs, that's why we have level 1 for GNAS members.

The course is 25hours long, 2 weekends and is primarily for non GNAS members. But they must endorse it as they (we?) teach and run the courses and GNAS office administer them.