coach level ?

[geoffretired]

Thanks for the link Joe and thanks to the others who have added to the thread.Some confidence has been restored.
The slow trickle method seems to be the way things work.Does that indicate that this forum(and possibly others) is the quickest way to disseminate current thinking?This is a powerful tool for the good of archery.

[joetapley]

(disclaimer I'm not a GNAS coach).

Coaching conferences/seminars should be the primary update mechanism with the coaching/sports science journals providing in-depth backup. Trouble with open forums is that there his a high percentage of bad info on them. For coaching info I would suggest Sagi Board and the FITA section of Archery Talk the reason being that both these forums have top level coaches participating and the mumbo jumbo merchants can't get away with too much. I would take anything from other forums at the same level as stories you hear on the shooting line. (i.e. large pinch of salt)

GNAS, maybe, could improve information flow with the internet - maybe one day. A controlled (coach) access forum moderated by top coaches could be sensibly used.

[geoffretired]

Joe, your ideas are very helpful once again. Your last post says it all, I feel.
With reference to the top level coaches' forum idea,I suppose lower level coaches who want to improve, could register and take part in the threads?
Thanks for the words of wisdom. Is anything in the pipeline?

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by joetapley

GNAS, maybe, could improve information flow with the internet - maybe one day. A controlled (coach) access forum moderated by top coaches could be sensibly used.

Yep, we're onto it...

As previously mentioned there is a(n) MSN group for coaches in Britain, moderated by senior coaches, open to access by all qualified coaches.

There is another website in development (not on MSN) which will have the format of boards like this.

Watch this space....

[Murray]

The GNAS coaching manuals I've seen are pretty reasonable, as far as they go (the FITA one is pretty cool too), but IMO they don't really hit the spot as "training materials" for higher level archers, and that really has to come through the coach training mechanisms (otherwise I reckon you'd end up with a tome way too big to read!)

There are a lot of GOOD GNAS coaches out there, but lower down, there seem to me to be many coaches who simply do not (or can not) stay current with their sport, the thoughts and opinions of other coaches worldwide, and they lack the ability (technical or otherwise) to have a discourse with those who have actually trained world-class archers certainly hampers that. A lot of hearsay and rumour seems to get ingrained as "current thinking" and root and branch level, and too many coaches decide "it's this way or no way" when of course, there are many ways to shoot successfully, even though the basics are generally well understood.

I've still no idea why the GNAS coaching organisation did not create the archer's reference for example - as a club member in a small limited club, I had no access to coaches, materials, etc (hence why it was written)... when I asked for such materials, I was simply told none existed - surely good entry-level materials like this would assist in taking the load of coaches and improving the general standard of knowledge throughout the archery community as a whole?

The situation these days is much improved with everyone and their granny apparently writing books (Simple art was one of the earliest and best "all rounders" I ever read, the of course the raft of others like "precision archery" (naff), "heretic" (good), "total archery" (also good) and Simon Needham's upcoming publication (no idea yet)) not to mention dozens of good web-based resources for the coach or would-be coach - much of it then comes down to how you disseminate that information across all coaches to provide a consistent basis for knowledge transfer and prevent anarchy!

I agree with Joe re: conferences and seminars, but how much info can you get across in one major seminar a year (especially when they include items like "kyudo" in the agenda!??)... even then, the information from the seminars is not available to the non-attendees or future coaches. For example, I have a tape of the excellent talk given by Don Rabska one year - but getting a copy was like pulling teeth, and it was only because I was shown it at an area workshop that I knew of its existence - ideal material for a centralised coaching website.

I do know that the SAA has a coaching website, specifically for coaches to disseminate information, who knows - perhaps other regions have taken similar steps and it's "simply" a matter of pulling them together into one cohesive framework.

[edited - I see Ian got there before me!] As always, he's on the case and frankly I think it's definitely the way forward, providing the coaches sign up to it of course But yes, one internal site for coaching Knowledge transfer, and one external site for delivery of messages re:accepted practice to the great unwashed would be perfect .

[geoffretired]

I'm starting to feel better again.That's interesting stuff from Murray and Meddler.

[joetapley]

But yes, one internal site for coaching Knowledge transfer, and one external site for delivery of messages re:accepted practice to the great unwashed would be perfect

As one of the great unwashed I concur.

[whisky]

Geoff,
Came across this and didn't know if it was of any use:

http://www.archery.org/clients/fita/...4?OpenDocument

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by Murray

The GNAS coaching manuals I've seen are pretty reasonable, as far as they go (the FITA one is pretty cool too), but IMO they don't really hit the spot as "training materials" for higher level archers, and that really has to come through the coach training mechanisms (otherwise I reckon you'd end up with a tome way too big to read!)

The way the GNAS Coaching Manual is constructed (ie loose leaf folder), there is always the possibility of adding new bits and pieces. And yes I agree the GNAS Coaching Manual doesn't do much with higher level coaching... So we should maybe write a module. Problem is, that some organisations / individuals have already written books on the subject. And they have now become "current thinking" (see below)... I'm old enough to remember "Power Archery" by Dave Keaggy, I used to have a copy but I gave it away... That was once "current thinking" but we have moved on.

Originally Posted by Murray

There are a lot of GOOD GNAS coaches out there, but lower down, there seem to me to be many coaches who simply do not (or can not) stay current with their sport, the thoughts and opinions of other coaches worldwide, and they lack the ability (technical or otherwise) to have a discourse with those who have actually trained world-class archers certainly hampers that.

Hence the CPD requirement. We are trying to ensure that coaches at all levels "stay current". Granted there are Coaches out there who have the ticket but don't do anything about it. And there are others who will go and read up every last bit of info, And there are people like me who talk about it a lot....

Originally Posted by Murray

A lot of hearsay and rumour seems to get ingrained as "current thinking" and root and branch level, and too many coaches decide "it's this way or no way" when of course, there are many ways to shoot successfully, even though the basics are generally well understood.

Exactly.
"We are all individuals".
No two archers will shoot exactly the same, even if they come from Korea.
And what do we say to someone when something goes wrong? "Go back to the basics". Archery is simple, it's only people who make it complicated...

Originally Posted by Murray

I've still no idea why the GNAS coaching organisation did not create the archer's reference for example - as a club member in a small limited club, I had no access to coaches, materials, etc (hence why it was written)... when I asked for such materials, I was simply told none existed - surely good entry-level materials like this would assist in taking the load of coaches and improving the general standard of knowledge throughout the archery community as a whole?

Absolutely right... and you've written it, so why reinvent the wheel... Thing about the Archer's Reference (and/or any book on archery) by the time you have printed it it has become out of date, because of new equipment that has become available. Or because of new "current" techniques...

Originally Posted by Murray

The situation these days is much improved with everyone and their granny apparently writing books (Simple art was one of the earliest and best "all rounders" I ever read, the of course the raft of others like "precision archery" (naff), "heretic" (good), "total archery" (also good) and Simon Needham's upcoming publication (no idea yet)) not to mention dozens of good web-based resources for the coach or would-be coach - much of it then comes down to how you disseminate that information across all coaches to provide a consistent basis for knowledge transfer and prevent anarchy!

I disagree with your qualitative appraisal of some of the books you havementioned. And others will disagree with mine. Total archery is "good in bits" imho (reason being there are some bits of dodgy practice illustrated, and the pictures don't always match the text). Heretic - haven't read it yet (birthday pressie to self, I think), "Precision archery" still to make my mind up (doesn't have enough pictures in it for me...). "Core archery", interesting, uses bits of Axford's Archery Anatomy.... and so on...

Thing is people will read these books and decide that's the only way to go... where in reality, there are bits they can take out of it which they can use, just as there are bits out of other books people can take and use. Key to the whole process is understanding. If you understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, there's a better chance you'll do it properly.

Originally Posted by Murray

I agree with Joe re: conferences and seminars, but how much info can you get across in one major seminar a year (especially when they include items like "kyudo" in the agenda!??)... even then, the information from the seminars is not available to the non-attendees or future coaches.

Last year we had a talk by Emin Ergen on archery and a whole load of medical stuff, as well as an excellent book on the medical / physiological side of archery available from FITA. Haven't got the details to hand at the moment... Of course, subjects can be suggested for future conferences, which may be of "more relevance" than some other subjects. eg working with disabled / visually impaired archers. There was one subject I was looking forward to this year and it was less interesting than I thought it should be. In fact, it made drying paint look intersteing...

Originally Posted by Murray

I do know that the SAA has a coaching website, specifically for coaches to disseminate information, who knows - perhaps other regions have taken similar steps and it's "simply" a matter of pulling them together into one cohesive framework.

[edited - I see Ian got there before me!] As always, he's on the case and frankly I think it's definitely the way forward, providing the coaches sign up to it of course But yes, one internal site for coaching Knowledge transfer, and one external site for delivery of messages re:accepted practice to the great unwashed would be perfect .

The SAA website (thought it was more widespread than that, but I have to seek clarificiation there...) is still being developed, the external site re accepted practice, no idea there.

One problem I have seen so far with the Coaching group on MSN was the initial burst of enthusiasm, then it goes off the boil...

[Wrexham Exile]

was he a wales coach by any chance?