Coaches... What are they good for?

[Rik]

"Do recent beginners need a high level coach?"

This is one of those questions which probably isn't phrased quite right.

Here's another question for you:
Is it better to take an existing archer, and try and fix all their problems, or to take a beginner and teach them to do it right in the first place?

Good, basic instruction doesn't need a high level coach, but it does need an instructor who knows what to do. That is to say, someone who has access to a "high level" (by which I simply mean "competent") coach.

The worst case scenario would be a mediocre coach, teaching the clueless how to coach beginners, using techniques based on unproven "theory". I don't think things have ever gotten that bad, but I can't prove it from some "coaches" I've met.

One thing RGS mentioned struck a chord. There seems to be a tendency to try and drag people into coaching, to make up the numbers. Worse, once you're in, the inclination is to try and get you involved in the coaching hierarchy. I can understand that people in the hierarchy might want to share the pain, but I have the feeling that the bureaucracy ought to be separated from the business of coaching... I'm not saying that people should be prevented from going into "coaching management" if that rings their bells, but the process ought to be separate from the business of coaching.

[Meddler]

All, thank you for your helpful and constructive replies thus far.

Let me answer the questions I see as having been posed so far....

Availability :
In the Strategic Development Plan, GNAS have committed to having one Coach (of whatever level) in each club. We're working towards it, and currently it would appear 67% of clubs have one or more Coaches.

I have been lucky enough to have been in Clubs which have had more than one Coach. The opportunities for "team" Coaching is brilliant. Two pairs of eyes can see more than one. Not only that, but you have backup.

How can you get hold of a Coach? :
Well, if not through the Club, then the next point of contact is the County, or even at Regional level. Not as easy as the internet, admittedly, but a possibility.

"It(coaching)'ll help you with your archery" :
Er, no...

You may learn some stuff you didn't know before, but it's not a guarantee. And since you will undoubtedly spend more time helping others, your personal practice goes by the board. Personally, if someone gives that as an answer for coming on a Coaching course, I ask them to reconsider their answer....
Why do people coach? I believe to help others.

Level 1 Coach as Instructor :
We used to have the Instructor grade in Coaching... Then we had Coach, which was higher than Instructor but not as high as County. New terminology.

A Level 1 Coach will deliver lessons under supervison of a more senior Coach. This supervision may be at a distance...

Dealing with archers :
It's a tricky thing... communication is what is needed. And Coach and Archer may not be on the same wavelength... my favourite phrase goes "I'm not sure you understand that what you think I said wasn't what I meant".

Credibility, trust and communication is what is needed (imho). How do you get credibility? By doing a good job, and people seeing you have done a good job, and people telling other people you have done a good job. But... you can ruin that credibility by one unfortunate choice of words.

Coach as critic :
Tricky one this...
"I knew you'd say that" generally gives the impression the Archer knew all along what was going wrong, and when told the Archer goes on the defensive.

The approach I prefer would go something along the lines of, "What do YOU think is happening?" Getting an Archer to think about and own their problem is half the battle.

My two penn'orth:
Oh and a Coach certificate isn't a magic wand. Coaches can't magic up Olympic level shooting... It's the hard work of the Archer that gets the job done.

Rik, your comments about teaching how to train... this is being thought about, but I'll forward your comments to my NSG/CEDG colleagues.

Thank you all for your positive input to this thread.

Iain.

[Meddler]

Originally Posted by Rik

"Do recent beginners need a high level coach?"

This is one of those questions which probably isn't phrased quite right.

Here's another question for you:
Is it better to take an existing archer, and try and fix all their problems, or to take a beginner and teach them to do it right in the first place?.

The answer to me is self evident. Yes. The more you do right now, the less you have to correct later on.

Originally Posted by Rik

Good, basic instruction doesn't need a high level coach, but it does need an instructor who knows what to do. That is to say, someone who has access to a "high level" (by which I simply mean "competent") coach.

The worst case scenario would be a mediocre coach, teaching the clueless how to coach beginners, using techniques based on unproven "theory". I don't think things have ever gotten that bad, but I can't prove it from some "coaches" I've met.

The technique for archery as we all know is quite simple. Pull the string back, point at the target, let go... It's how the accuracy is developed later on that's the problem. Which way do we do it?

Originally Posted by Rik

One thing RGS mentioned struck a chord. There seems to be a tendency to try and drag people into coaching, to make up the numbers.

I'll beg to differ on that one. Most people (imho) come into Coaching with the idea of helping others.

Originally Posted by Rik

Worse, once you're in, the inclination is to try and get you involved in the coaching hierarchy. I can understand that people in the hierarchy might want to share the pain, but I have the feeling that the bureaucracy ought to be separated from the business of coaching... I'm not saying that people should be prevented from going into "coaching management" if that rings their bells, but the process ought to be separate from the business of coaching.

If we don't get people in to Coaching, then the number of people left to do the jobs in the hierarchy goes down. If you have fewer and fewer people doing the jobs, how long before they find they've had enough and go and do gardening instead? So we need the numbers... just like squads. You have to be able to pick from a large number to get the people to go to the next level up. What number of Level 1s do we need to get a sustainable number of Level 4s and 5s?

It's about motivation. I can understand if some people are dragged in at Level 1. But if they go to Level 2 and beyond thay have to give a commitment that they will help with the levels below. If they choose to do that, then they have gone into it with their eyes wide open.

Prior to going on the Senior Coach course I was asked what I was going to get out of being a Senior Coach. The first answer was "grief". The next answer was "more knowledge", therefore becoming a better Coach.

Part of being a Coach of whatever level is dealing with people, some of whom are resistant to what you have to say. Everybody has an opinion and a perfect right to express it. But if they are being negative about things, they have to be able to provide a solution, otherwise, they're just part of the problem.

Rant over.... for now...

Iain.

[Ian_S]

I Think Rik's post covers my experiences and this:

Originally Posted by Rik

If I had to say what I'd like to see, it would be something like this:

• Training in how to coach, how to get ideas across in different ways, how to tell when you need to try a different approach to get through to someone.
• Training on training. How you do it, at what level, what sort of results you should expect, how to tell if you're getting them and if not, why not.
• Training on technique. What works, what doesn't. The pitfalls to avoid. Common problems, how to spot them and how to fix them. Things you can get away with varying and things you can't.
• Training on equipment. How to set up kit correctly from scratch. How to advise people in selecting equipment.

Is exactly what I would like to see too in an ideal world. Especially the common problems and how to spot and fix them. Why can't GNAS coaching produce a manual or better yet a DVD showing that kind of thing?

I'm currently taking the Level 1 training course and it does touch on the different forms of communication and getting ideas across. However, it's at a very simple level. You really need a whole course on that subject alone and not many of us have the time / money to do that. Perhaps it is covered in more detail in later levels.

As someone else has pointed out the Level 1 is really enabling someone to instruct beginners, taking the first step on the path to being a "recognised" coach and enabling them to decide if they want to take things any further. I think the thing about this course is it makes you realize exactly what is going to be involved if you do follow this path. It emphasises keeping records of our work, getting feedback and analysing what was good or bad, worked or didn't work etc. The idea of producing a Continuous Development Plan means you can take a serious look at where you want to take your instruction or coaching skills.

I've also heard that the current County Coach course (which is on its way to being converted to Level 3) covers things like setting equipment up from scratch, and devising a training plan to get a beginner to the next Olympics. So it seems to me that things are changing to cover information and skills that will be very useful to the development of our archers. It's just going to take time to get the coaches we need (2 years for a county / level 3 course?).

Perhaps the important thing (and hardest thing to do) is for a coach to realize their own limitations. If they have limited experience and only worked on instructing beginners then it's probably best they don't jump in and try
and fix an experienced archers problems. On the other hand I'm sure there are coaches out there that are capable of technical coaching to a high level (through their own experience/skill). But they are worried that what they know isn't the right (approved?) way anymore so they don't offer help
and we lose out on that valuable knowledge.

Seems to me we return yet again to the lack of communication in the coaching organisation (or perhaps its just my perception). We need a way of keeping all coaches up to date with the current "Best Practices", and perhaps more importantly, which practices are nolonger recommended (and why). Part of this has to include coaches talking and working together. So that when a coach encounters an archers obscure compound bow tuning problem that they can't solve they can put that archer in touch with someone that can help.

Lastly what we want to avoid is coaches competing / disagreeing with one another in public. I have had reported to me an instance of one coach offering advice to an archer without being asked and telling that archer that their current coach was teaching them incorrectly. This sort of thing should not be happening. It doesn't help the archer and it doesn't do coaches any favours at all...

[Max]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

I have had reported to me an instance of one coach offering advice to an archer without being asked and telling that archer that their current coach was teaching them incorrectly. This sort of thing should not be happening. It doesn't help the archer and it doesn't do coaches any favours at all...

This is a very difficult area Ian and I do very much understand the problems, but I for one think that a club coach should be able to approach an archer who is clearly struggling - it is all about how it is done and here we come to the important part about people skills in coaching. I guess there may be a case of a coach making it clear to members that he is there for them and may ask them from time to time if everything is OK.

There must be a lot of people like me who don't like asking others to spare time when they clearly have come down to the club to shoot themselves, or maybe just to get over a bad day - maybe I am just a little too polite, but when I was going through a bad patch in December with my recurve, I kept thinking, God, I wish someone would offer to help me - so to all coaches out there, please ask if you see trouble brewing - you make prevent a train wreck. For every person with enough brass to go and get what they want, there are a lot more who don't like bothering people. I packed in Recurve in december for a while and went compound, just to get away from the frustration.

[joetapley]

Most club archers in the UK are recreational archers so the requirement for good coaching is not that important. Those that want to improve probably can and those who aren't bothered ...

What is needed IMO is that when a (usually young) archer joins a club, gets hooked and wants to be competitive that the improvement ladder exists. So maybe initially the aim should be "good quality coaching" available at the County level for juniors/young archers and a lower priority given to getting a Level 1 coach into every club. Never been convinced that Level 1 coaches do any better at club level than experienced archers. What Level 1 coaches do have is the committment/enthusiasm and that has its value.

Maybe what's wanted is a positive feed from GNAS to the coaches. Internet already mentioned but how about say a quarterly "coaching news" issued to all coaches. Italy have a policy of issuing a freebie of some kind to all coaches on an annual basis. Last year every coach got a copy of the Heretic Archer - just brainstorming

Bear in mind that despite all the knocking all archers would like to see a good coaching system in place and would support it (including parting with hard cash). Archers are the customers and coaches always have to monitor customer satisfaction which may not be the same as coach satisfaction.

[Shirt]

Originally Posted by Meddler

What is your problem with GNAS Coaches?

I want reasons why you think the GNAS Coaching system is brilliant / good / OK / bad / awful.

And more importantly, what do you think can be done to improve it?

Oooh, you really did find a big box of matches for this one, didn't you...

Ways the system works - once you get to Level 3 and 4, coaches tend to really know what they're talking about and can accept that there are multiple ways of doing things. They will be able to have an intelligent conversation with you, and offer suggestions as to how to improve a particular part of shooting and WHY, rather than just "you need to do this". They'll also be able to pick up on why certain things are happening - "you've got a slight lean forward because of the way you set your hips which is because of your stance..." etc.

Level 1 and 2 coaches tend (note - not everyone, but a fair few) to forget this and concentrate on the "do this" approach. They'll also occasionally come out with some gems such as "you need to fix your release." and when asked how "I'm not sure... you could try pulling harder". There's a general tendency to also shrug their shoulders when questioned about something and sometimes be unable to back up what they've just said. E.G. "You need to stop dropping your arm, it'll get you thrown off the line at a competition". When asked why the person in question hasn't been chucked off the line "well, I don't know much, I've only been doing this since... (date about 40 years ago)." Which completely avoids the question.

Basically, a level 3 or 4 coach will be helpful and able to communicate objectives and methods well. A lower level coach will tend to be more proscriptive and less likely to think outside the box - perhaps this is taught in the level 3 training? There appears to be a small majority of L1 and 2 coaches who will acknowledge their limits "we only covered XXX on the coaching course, I think you need to ask someone else" but not all of them.

Improving it? My usual response is "decertify them all and start from scratch" but I'll happily acknowledge that's horribly impractical. Most clubs will advertise some sort of "coaching night" - how's about having a CCO or RCO going along to that _unadvertised_ to conduct some sort of spot check and see what sort of coaching is being done and whether it's working, or whether the club's coach needs to be sent off for more training?
Is there currently any checking done on CPD - asking which books/magazines they've read lately and asking in detail ("So did you read the article on XXX? What did you think?") If not, why not?
Is there any checking up on coaches logs - the ones that say what they've done and where and with who? There should be, since it's very easy for what's written in those to be a bit different to reality and no-one to be in a position to contradict.
(Yes, I'm aware I appear to be calling coaches as a species liars there - I apologise to all those who aren't, but in order to improve the whole thing you have to reduce the bad bits. If you think of Islam at the moment most people would think of the nutters that fly planes into buildings rather than the umpteen million peaceful people that happen to follow a religion - the bad elements tend to ruin the whole thing...)

Oh, and one final thing, God knows how you train them for it - a sense of balance in coaches. It's not all always a kit problem, it's not all always a mental problem, it can be any number of things in combination.

It'll be interesting to see where this thread goes...

[wingate_52]

Last week I got a couple of tips (coaching) off our GB archer. She started off with a couple of favourable comments, Good position of drawing hand under chin nice **** etc. to put me in a positive frame, then asked if she could comment about my left hand sometimes dropping to quickly and the need to push forward. So I got a PB, I hope to remember her comments in future. (Toned cheeks from all the cycling I do). We could all do with a bit of coaching, and human nature is such that we will react in a positive way if suggestions are put to us in a way that suits us. Being shouted at, boring routines,negative responses may not always work best.As a skool teecher I find that being firm but human gets by with most kids. If you are a good teacher/coach and can prove it by walking the walk they will give you a chance. You cannot make/force someone to be a good student/archer, but you can help and encourage them.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by Max

This is a very difficult area Ian and I do very much understand the problems, but I for one think that a club coach should be able to approach an archer who is clearly struggling - it is all about how it is done and here we come to the important part about people skills in coaching. I guess there may be a case of a coach making it clear to members that he is there for them and may ask them from time to time if everything is OK.

There must be a lot of people like me who don't like asking others to spare time when they clearly have come down to the club to shoot themselves, or maybe just to get over a bad day - maybe I am just a little too polite, but when I was going through a bad patch in December with my recurve, I kept thinking, God, I wish someone would offer to help me - so to all coaches out there, please ask if you see trouble brewing - you make prevent a train wreck. For every person with enough brass to go and get what they want, there are a lot more who don't like bothering people. I packed in Recurve in december for a while and went compound, just to get away from the frustration.

Max, sorry my post wasn't intended to imply that coaches shouldn't make the first approach to an archer. I agree that this is a difficult area and if you are struggling then having an offer of help is a real life saver. I'm all for coaches making the first approach if it is done in the right way.

What I was trying to say was that I believe that a coach (or expert / helpful club member) making that approach should check whether the archer is receiving any coaching and if they would like any assistance. This allows the archer to take the help or politely refuse it. Just charging in and telling the archer that they need help, possibly combined with negative statements about the archers style and current coach, is not going to help anyone especially the archer.

As a struggling compound archer I find it interesting that you moved to compound to get away from the frustration

[joetapley]

No need to get paranoid about offering unsolicited advice -maybe its a coach thing. When another (experienced) archer comments about my shooting varying from "you know you are ...." to "that was complete !!!!" I welcome the comment and take it on board. Equally when I've used the "you know you are..." I've never had a bad reaction (though my advice may be ignored ).

Coaches presumably know that coming in like a bulldozer with an "I'm an expert so do what I say" approach is going to get nowhere.