Goal Setting?

[ASW1973]

goals must be attainable and measurable.
It would be best and easiest if you seperate goals first of all into Competitve and practice.
Practice goals can be more nebulous ideas such as feel and technique but competitve goals must have tangible results.Basically we are talking about the difference between qualitative and quantitave results.
So the next logical step is to look at how good one is when one performs averagely. Averageley is at about 80% on all scales, effort, arousal and execution. This is a fair measure of where the individual is at. Do not chase perfection 100% even 90% is functionally unattainable over any length of time (uses up too much resources and u metaphorically fall over). Now the trick over time in practice is to make the levels u achieve for 80% effort higher and higher (paradoxically this means that your practice must involve putting pressure on what u are doing in some part). Thus when you compete you will have some of your resources used up by increased arousal, expectation, nerves etc and the skill wont fail. Please dont ever belive, by the way, that in this sport or nearly any other you can filter out the competitive deteriation due to increased pressure on your resources by relaxation tecniques etc. The ability to perform under pressure can only be attained by having a mixture of qualitative and quantitative goals that are well managed and made up of a mixed and idiosyncratic menu.
Finally the idiosyncracy of goals should be in their tailoring to what the individual HONESTLY wants, and then not hiding from it.

[Rik]

People set 'score goals' because they are easy to set. It's the lazy option. It doesn't require any thought other than "what do I want to score?".

It's not that there is anything wrong with setting a score goal, however. It's just that they should only be a small part of the goal setting which is being done. I suspect that most people set themselves other sorts of goals as well, but they don't document them. May not be fully aware that they are setting them, but have a feeling that things aren't right when they miss them.

I'm never sure about the 'touchy-feely' kinds of goals. Shooting 'good shots' sounds like a reasonable goal, but how do you quantify it? Say 'shoot 60% good shots', huh? Still not quantified. Say 'shoot 60% of shots into the red/gold' and suddenly you're back into a score goal again...
Scoring the shots by 'feel' might be a work around, but the emphasis there, again, is work

How about 'qualify for bowman/MB/GMB', 'get a top ten national ranking', 'win x competitions', 'win a medal in a national level competition'.

[Kellog]

I disagree with the "win x competitions" or "win a medal in a national level competition" because those can't be personal goals.
In order to acheive either of them you are dependent on beatig the competition, which mean you are dependent on other people to allow you to achieve your own goals. And that plain doesn't work.

I like the idea of scoring a round dependent on what the shot feels like tho. I might have a go at that tomorrow at Chantry. T'will be interesting to see what I get on feel compared to the actual score.

[Marcus26]

End of the day if you execute correctly the scores take care of themselves.
It is very difficult to get the mid right, I concentrated on it today and shot a PB for combined 90m/70m round. I was keeping score but did not worry about it, just shot good shots. Obviously I made mistakes but that was also the process (in one end I shot 3 x's at 90m and then a 5!) make mistakes and recover for the next shot.

Archery is not like basketball. I can not play better defence on my opposition, I can not get mad and take the ball hard to the basket. The only thing I can possible do is shoot the shots as best I can and they will fall where they do.

[clickerati]

Originally Posted by Marcus26

Archery is not like basketball. I can not play better defence on my opposition, I can not get mad and take the ball hard to the basket. The only thing I can possible do is shoot the shots as best I can and they will fall where they do.

I like your thinking, Marcus. Constantly focusing on a score I need to get, averaging how many I need for each end, and the whole numbers game does my head in and actually makes me shoot worse. Yes, I like to have a rough idea of what I'm shooting after each end, but I try to let those numbers go. I'm not brilliant at math, so it's not really a problem.

End of the day if you execute correctly the scores take care of themselves...Obviously I made mistakes but that was also the process (in one end I shot 3 x's at 90m and then a 5!) make mistakes and recover for the next shot.

Like you, I try to correct what I'm doing wrong (although it's not always successful) and concentrate on my technique and most of all how it feels. When I feel more and think less, I'm relaxed and shoot better.

With my should injury this summer, my only goal was to make third class. I didn't think I'd be able to do it. But having shot my proficiency rounds in the minimum tries required, at a higher score than the highest one required, gave me confidence. I got three third class scores in three tries. I was very pleased considering I took six weeks off and am shooting with a bow that does quite fit me and arrows that are the wrong spine.

My new goal is to spend the indoor season refining my technique. I'd like to earn an indoor classification, as well. And hopefully by New Year, I'll have a new setup and arrows, so who knows what I'll be able to achieve by the end of the next outdoor season. First class?? As you said Marcus, the arrows will fall where they do.

[geoffretired]

This is getting really fascinating.There is so much to think about and store for use later.
So often, this side of improvement is overlooked. Also, so often this side of improvement is clouded by others. Comments about a good shot because it hit the gold, from someone who didn't even see the execution, just the flight. As Marcus was saying , shots in the ten can be badly executed;perhaps two errors in technique cancelled each othe out.
The feel of the shot is difficult to put into words and that makes it more difficult for us to remember and record how good shots should feel. As Rik said, it it easier to set goals using scores. Would many archers want to go down the road of analysing feelings and trying to reproduce them next time. If the person helping/coaching never did it for themselves, what chance that it will happen in the lessons? Perhaps there needs to be more help given to those who coach/help and those who shoot. Help with wording their feelings. Good is not very helpful. We tend to say that FELT good. We noticed afterwards when it's too late. What "felt good" may be one aspect like the follow through for example. That is important, but don't we need to know the feelings of the earlier stages, so we can abort before the shot is no longer recoverable? Marcus also mentions this. He said about the draw feeling wrong etc.Is it possible to list the feelings that go with the different aspects of a shot? The drawing stage feels like....................
As we reach the references feels like................
The follow through....... etc.
It may already have been done. Can I have a copy?
If not, would it make any sense to make such a list?MMMmm?
ASW1973, I was interested in your post. A lot to think about there and take on board.Very useful.

[Rik]

Originally Posted by Kellog

I disagree with the "win x competitions" or "win a medal in a national level competition" because those can't be personal goals.
In order to acheive either of them you are dependent on beatig the competition, which mean you are dependent on other people to allow you to achieve your own goals. And that plain doesn't work.

Well, yes and no. If you can't raise your game to beat the opposition even when they are shooting well... It's all very well aming to shoot a good average, but what if your opponent is aiming to win...? Which will work better? (That's not a question with a right or wrong answer, by the way... )

On a slightly different track; I recall a conversation with a friend (quite a few) years back, about tens and scores. Would you rather achieve a score with exactly the number of tens you need, or with an excess of tens and some bad shots thrown in? His argument was that more tens are better. You're getting it right more of the time...

[clickerati]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

...The feel of the shot is difficult to put into words and that makes it more difficult for us to remember and record how good shots should feel. As Rik said, it it easier to set goals using scores...

I think an archer needs to go with his or her strengths - some of us are more about feeling, others focus on the numbers, and some may concentrate on the intellect of it. All of these come into play, but in different combinations depending on what type of person you are. You then need to find a coach who compliments your approach. A numbers coach might as well be speaking Swahili to a feeling archer. IMHO, A good coach, no matter what his or her personal inclination is, will understand ALL the aspects or learning and be able to speak a language the archer understands.

For instance, at my club one of the coaches is very technical. He goes over a lot of beginners' heads, not to mention his approach is quite gruff. Another coach, however, is more soft and touchy-feely in her approach. I've gleaned information off both of these coaches, but I know who I work better with.

I also think the male and female mind work differently and that needs to be addressed, as well. Yes, it is a blanket statement, but I do think there is some truth in it. Talk numbers or very technical stuff and I will tune out. Show me correct technique using a photo, picture, diagram or live demonstration, etc and I will learn from observing.

People do learn differently and that has to be taken into account just as it is in any form of teaching.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by clickerati

I also think the male and female mind work differently and that needs to be addressed, as well. Yes, it is a blanket statement, but I do think there is some truth in it. Talk numbers or very technical stuff and I will tune out. Show me correct technique using a photo, picture, diagram or live demonstration, etc and I will learn from observing.

This is interesting, and very true. However a good coach should be able to tune their approach to the individual whether male ror female (or junior with limited attention span).

My wife and I have the same coach and it is interesting to observe the different approach. I get the technical side, how to tie D-loops, adjust timing, change peep height etc, my wife gets that done for her, either by the coach or by me now I've learned how. This was not for any reason other than my wife not being interested in the technical aspects of her bow.

When it comes to shooting, the coaching approach is very much the same. He trys to get us to feel the shot and remember how a good shot feels. Obviously we have different faults and he addresses those in different ways. His was of reinforcement is different though. For my wife he uses positive comments all the time. For me he soon discovered I don't respond well to positive comments when my attempt was not 'perfect'. So I get the p*ss taken when appropriate and praise when appropriate.

It seems to work for us

[clickerati]

Originally Posted by MikeD

This is interesting, and very true. However a good coach should be able to tune their approach to the individual whether male ror female (or junior with limited attention span).

Exactly what I was trying to say!

My wife and I have the same coach and it is interesting to observe the different approach. I get the technical side, how to tie D-loops, adjust timing, change peep height etc, my wife gets that done for her, either by the coach or by me now I've learned how. This was not for any reason other than my wife not being interested in the technical aspects of her bow.

Although I tune out when I'm overloaded by numbers and technical aspects, I DO want to learn how to do these things myself. I don't want to rely on others to tune my bow, but while I'm learning I want to observse someone else doing it. I want to take responsibility for my archery, both tuning and technique. I want to know that when I do x the result will be y.

I imagine there are both women and men who would prefer to leave things in the hands of their coach or someone more senior. I realise at this point in my archery I'm learning and I can't know everything, so I will rely on others for coaching and advice. But I hope the end result is a sixth sense about my shooting, confidence in my own bow tuning and an understanding of how the numbers work.