Form question - specifics about hip/torso position

[Christopher Lee]

Some of you may remember that I was re-building my entire form, and posted up in AIUK many moons ago about this.

Something which has been at the back of my mind got brought forward with a US archer posting a video about her 'new' form after Ki Sik Lee's training.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VordWB_AcpE

When I asked about it (in another forum), someone informed me that what Joy was doing (rotating the hips to the target) was a common mistake. I have heard that both Ki Sik, as well as our Korean coach (recurve) advocates keeping the hips as parallel to the feet as possible, and rotating the upper body to get in line, or something to that effect.

I have seen a few recurve archers here work very hard to achieve that, and was wondering what the advantages were, since it looked very uncomfortable (and felt uncomfortable when I tried it, but I suppose that's mainly because I may have been doing it incorrectly, or haven't gotten used to it yet..).

It feels more comfortable allowing the hips to rotate with the upper body, and I've seen many of our top archers doing that.

Please bear in mind that I'm posting up not to bash any method, approach or technique, archer or coach.

I would like to find out the advantages and disadvantages of each (keeping hips parallel to feet in the open stance, or allowing hips to rotate with the upper body).

[Rhys]

I'm no top archer i'm afraid, however i find that keeping my hips open to the target allows me to get a better feel of back tension.

When I'm outdoors and i begin to get tired, on some shots my hips come into line with the target whilst my feet stay open - i find that to be uncomfotable and, in the wind, unstable.

[Meddler]

If the technique you adopt is putting undue strain on your body, or you feel uncomfortable doing it, then it's not right.

I have always said it is better to work with the body than fight against it.

By keeping things as simple as possible, you ensure that a technique is (more) repeatable time after time.

If you find that with a really open stance is causing problems, close the stance slightly, until you find a position that is comfortable for you.

Iain

[radsbow]

I tried an open stance with hips open to the target last all last year. I can certainly say that you do indeed gain a lot more stability in the shot and greater back pressure.

However, for me it caused me far too much strain/pain in the lower back after a few months, (I have had 1 disc removed and 1 disc scraped). Anyway, I had to revert back to closing my hips (parallell).

If I could do it without the strain on my back, I would.

[Rhys]

Yes that is a good point, i used to have a bad back and when i first started shooting open stance i couldnt do it because of back pain either.

Fortunately after a few weeks of building up stomach and lower back muscles it wasnt an issue any more.

[ThePinkOne]

I just let my shoulders lead my hips into a natural position. I did try to only twist at the waist, but I'm very short-waisted and it just wasn't really possible, even without the bow in my hands. So I quit worrying about it.

Sometimes it's too easy to be concerned at not being able to reach "textbook" position. I had this in R/C with my draw-hand- try as I might I could never get the hand vertical and always doglegged the string quite badly. Club coach in casual mode liked to point this out too often. So one day, when I went for my regular back appointment I talked to my Chiropractor (who also has archery experience) about it. Anyway, he had a look at my arms, checked my arm rotation and asked if I'd ever damaged my right arm. I had- as a wee bairn. He asked because it turns out I have abnormal rotation in the right arm, and that is usually the result of previous damage. So I will not ever get textbook style with my drawhand- not physically possible for me on that point. Main thing was that the understanding of this made me much more relaxed, I was able to find a hand position that worked for me, overall it was a lesson well-learned.

I guess that's where the issue of "perfect textbook form" becomes a personal "style." That's also where the advice becomes valuable...

P.

[Murray]

Don Rabska used to coach "feet at 10, hips at 11, shoulders at 12". It's probably good enough up to 1300 gents FITA

We shouldn't forget that Ki-Sik's approach is geared towards world champions and people who can commit to hundreds of arrows a day and work semi-permanently with coaches. For most mere mortals, I would suggest not getting too hung up (or worse still, injuring yourself) over it.

Primary benefit of keeping feet and hips in line is strength/stability. Some people do take things to extremes though

[ASW1973]

Christopher lee, I dont know where you are posting from I am based in GB and the Korean coach for the GB squad has no problem with open stance.
The biggest plus point to an open stance is a very very very simple one: "it is easier to achieve a consistent body position in anything if one moves fluidly to that position as an end poin" this is common sense but often forgotten and in the case of an open stance somewhat abused. The whole point of the open stance is to allow the archer to move to a position of alignment that is not forced or controlled and therefore a better method than trying to statically align the body and then draw which the closed stance predisposes. To see people with open stance trying to control the movement is wrong. the picture murray posted shows a stance where the foot position will cause the alignment to be correct at the end of moving in to it and inhibit further or excess movement

[Murray]

I didn't read CL's post as indicating a preference against the open stance, but more a question of, when in open stance, should the hips align with the feet (greater torso twist), or somewhere between the angle of the feet and the shoulders (lesser torso twist)- the preference, he says, being to keep the hips as close to alignment with the feet as possible.

[ASW1973]

sorry u have miss-understood the purpose of my post. the fact of an open stance, or rather its purpose is to aid shoulder alignment. There is no reationship right or wrong between hip and feet position in the set up ONLY how this facilitates a constant upper torso (shoulder) alignment. As can be seen in the picture murray posted there are extremes.This is a topic that is much discussed and fundamentally misunderstood