What next for beginners?

[pHz]

Originally Posted by Erika

See my first point. If I am coaching you, you aren't allowed to take any advice from anyone unless I approve it.

with all due respect (and bearing in mind im a teacher by profession) while i understand why you might say that and that it works for you i would never want to work with a coach (or teacher in ANY subject) who dictated such terms - im with stylisht here - its the archers 'career' (for want of a better word - maybe journey is better) in archery - not the coaches - and the archer ought to consult with their coach but not necessarily be beholden to them

all IMHO of course

slainte rob

[ThePinkOne]

Originally Posted by Erika

See my first point. If I am coaching you, you aren't allowed to take any advice from anyone unless I approve it. There's too many overly helpful idiots with wonderful sounding advice that will mess up any work I'm trying to do wih you. The reason you have a coach (at least in the beginning) is to learn from them. What makes you think you know enough to discern right from wrong. I know plenty of people who can make a convincing argument for something totally wrong. That is why you should trust your coach. Run everything people tell you by them first. If you don't trust them they aren't your coach and you are wasting their time.

Too the original topic. In the absenece of a good coach or mentor, shoot lots of complete scored rounds. And keep constant records. Don't assume you shot badly until you've compared the score to your average. Work to improve your average.

Erika, I've got to agree here. This is from an archers' perspective....

IMO, if you work with a coach to improve seriously, it is likely to (a) be a long-term project and (b) require a high level of trust. Neither of which are helped by the archer going off and asking everyone else rather than just getting head down and working on what is taught. If you don't have confidence in what your coach is teaching you then why on earth did you decide to work with them in the first place...? To learn you need to trust your coach and work hard at what you do with them. As an archer I go further; if asked by someone in club what I did at a training session or how my coach works or something similar, I refuse to discuss it- so far as I am concerned that is confidential between my coach and me. No-one else's business. If another club coach has an issue with something I am doing they can talk to my coach. End of story.

Coaching requires a serious committment from both parties. To continue to "graze" opinion elsewhere as an archer when working with a coach IMO is very disrespectful to the coach and wholly inappropriate behaviour. I would not dream of doing so.

JMO though. All depends on the nature of the relationship with the coach too- is it a mass club session or a longer-term individual committment? One to consider if you want to find a coach- can you give the committment as an archer that you are expecting of the coach?

P.

[geoffretired]

I have read Erika's posts and Stylisht's on this thread and there is common ground, even where they seem to differ most.

Originally Posted by Erika

Run everything people tell you by them first.

Originally Posted by stylisht

I have one coach - but a lot of people who have given me advice, looked at aspects of my shot, and helped me mentally - and without the combination of all of them I would not be as confident in my shooting as I am today.

Those two ideas are very close, I feel. All it takes is for Stylisht's coach to ask for the ideas of others to be run past him first,and they match pretty well.
I am in the situation of coaching archers who are also being fed information(correct or otherwise) by several well meaning fellow archers.
The students are often confused by the different/conflicting information they are fed. I have to spend time sorting out their confusions. I could, and sometimes do, see this a bit of a drawback;but there is another side to this situation. By putting different ideas into the discussions, I can explain the reasoning behind the ideas and allow them to come to their own conclusions.After all, they will hear things from other archers/coaches and wonder about the value/truth of what they hear.To forbid them to listen is not always the best solution. It can be better to allow them to listen and then give them the skills/knowledge to filter for themselves.
Much can be gained from discussing mis-information. Many archers have these ideas for themselves but don't tell the coach about them. Passing on those ideas by saying, " So and So said," is better than leaving the ideas churning in their heads niggling in the background.

[Erika]

Originally Posted by pHz

with all due respect (and bearing in mind im a teacher by profession) while i understand why you might say that and that it works for you i would never want to work with a coach (or teacher in ANY subject) who dictated such terms - im with stylisht here - its the archers 'career' (for want of a better word - maybe journey is better) in archery - not the coaches - and the archer ought to consult with their coach but not necessarily be beholden to them

Once again. This is why I don't take on students unless they abide by my rules. I am an archer first. My time as far as I'm concerned is worth more to me than to waste it on someone who isn't going to learn from me. So I rarely work with anyone. And at most have two to three people that I spend time with.

If you want my help then you are beholden to me. You owe me the respect that my knowledge and experience deserves. There are plenty of other people you can go to for help that will not expect as much (although I think that trust is a small ask in return for my time). It is all dependent on how much and how well you wish to learn.

[Marcus26]

With no suprize I am sure I have the same opinion as Erika on coaching.

It is ok for students to get advise from others, but what you must remember is that a good coach is managing your progress carefully. For example lets say I want you to get your rear scapula position sorted out and that is all. Then some one who is not coaching you says 'hey you need to get your front shoulder down' and you start messing with that, it can actually set your development back a fair way. So always ask befoe implimenting.

Most coaches also shoot, so often you are relying on them giving up their leisure time for you. If every session they must dismantle the advise you were taking from other people then you won't improve and you are wasting their time.

So really, the question is, do you want coaching? If yes then you must let yourself be coached and not try to outsmart the coach. Some people can not be coached, they don't have the personality. If that is you then accept that and teach yourself.

My students who give me 100% control over their development hammer the other students in a very short time. Other coaches find the same.

[pHz]

Originally Posted by Erika

Once again. This is why I don't take on students unless they abide by my rules. I am an archer first. My time as far as I'm concerned is worth more to me than to waste it on someone who isn't going to learn from me. So I rarely work with anyone. And at most have two to three people that I spend time with.

If you want my help then you are beholden to me. You owe me the respect that my knowledge and experience deserves. There are plenty of other people you can go to for help that will not expect as much (although I think that trust is a small ask in return for my time). It is all dependent on how much and how well you wish to learn.

fair dues - as thepinkone says (and as i forgot to mention in my post) it depends on the archer and the coach and how they each see the relationship - however serious i might be about archery i still wouldnt want to be dictated to to that extent although some would be happy with it

maybe i have a different perspective on things since i am a teacher - i know my subject (art) inside out and can practice and teach it to a VERY high level but i could never say to a student that im the only art teacher they should listen to and that they cant learn anything from others - it runs against everything i believe as a teacher - not a direct parallel but close enough since art is a blend of technique and mindset too

horses for courses

slainte rob

[Marcus26]

I think teaching is different to coaching. If I was teaching a group of archers to shoot my approach would be totally different and less dictorial.

[Erika]

Originally Posted by pHz

but i could never say to a student that im the only art teacher they should listen to and that they cant learn anything from others

Nor you should you. I have no problem with students picking up bits and pieces from other sources as long as they speak to me prior to implementing them.

I also teach and I would point out that teaching a class of 30 students is not the same as coaching an individual. The danger with asking too many people is that your coach may not know where the error lies because they have no idea what drivel you've been listening too and where you went wrong. In many cases the end point may be the same, but how one coach gets there is different to another... and attempting both ways is an invitation to injury - I will not be responsible for someone's stupidity if they hurt themselves taking someone else's advice. I'll assume that stupidity in art class is less likely to end in injury?

As a biology teacher I am teaching them what is already written in black and white and there for them to read (if the lazy buggers would actually open the book) - all I do is clarify the bits they don't understand. For these classes - the answer will hardly vary no matter who they ask. I encourage them to learn from each other and from anyone they can pin down to explain it too them in a way they understand better - but the lesson doesn't change.

[ThePinkOne]

Originally Posted by Marcus26

So really, the question is, do you want coaching? If yes then you must let yourself be coached and not try to outsmart the coach. Some people can not be coached, they don't have the personality. If that is you then accept that and teach yourself.

I think this hits the nail on the head Marcus. I've heard quite a few archers saying "oh, I wish I had a coach" or such. However, I'd say a couple of things to that. (a) Have you LOOKED for a coach- you have to go hunt and even more importantly, (b) if you find a coach are you prepared to take on the implications of this? Good coaching IMO is not about some magic fairy dust or a quick fix- no such thing. It is a long-term process requiring committment from both parties- hence the need for trust. As you highlight, significant changes can require considerable time and hard work to implement.

Yes, "teaching" is totally different and implies a completely different relationship between teacher and pupil... and yes, I'd say much of what goes on at club level is "teaching" not "coaching" using this definition. Plus the other side of this of course is that the "coach" (as opposed to "teacher") has to have the level of skill, knowledge and experience to fulfil the other side of the (long-term) bargain. Which is a different issue.

Finally, I guess the input you look for (coaching/teaching) as an archer will depend on where you are in your archery career and what your ultimate goal is. If you've just finished Beginners' course and want to do a bit of club shooting than maybe some "teaching" is what you're after; if you're already shooting seriously and long-term have the goal and committment to shoot to international then I guess you look for a "coach."

Perhaps the loose terminology causes confusion, I don't know. I'm not suggesting we call our club coaches "teachers" I'm just using these terms in this post to try explain what I feel the different scenarios are, after all a particular coach is likely to be "coaching" some and "teaching" others... but perhaps if as archers we better consider what it is exactly what we are after when we approach a coach it would make life easier for all concerned?

P.

[pHz]

just to clarify

when i brought 'teaching' into the discussion i was thinking more about 17-18 year olds (A level students for those in the UK) who i deal with on a totally one-to-one basis and we actually do sometimes use the term 'coaching' to describe the process of working with them and the process is parallel - identify an area of their work to focus on and look for ways of improving it - teaching a class of 25 year 9 students (13 year olds) is obviously entirely different and i wouldnt try to draw any parallels there

and of course there isnt the danger of physical injury erika but that wasnt the parallel i was drawing - the risks are that their work goes in a direction that would not be beneficial for their improvement or the level of qualification they are aiming for

i think we are actually all agreeing in some respects -

not everyone wants or needs a coach

those that do want or need a coach may or may not respond well to a given coaches approach

- i think (again drawing parallels with teaching experience and knowledge of learning styles and psychology) it would be folly to assume that everyone can or will learn (or teach / coach) in the same way or respond to the same methods - the tricks are surely (on the archers side) finding a coach that suits them and their needs and (on the coaches side) recognising how best a given 'student' is likely to learn and adapting your coaching to best match that ?

slainte rob