What next for beginners?

[Alexam]

Originally Posted by not dead yet

personally i'd rather be a lonely good coach ...than a do gooder that doesn't think he / she is worth paying

Not Dead Yet......... If the present system of becoming a coach is on the basis of being unpaid for coaching, then it would apear that you have changed somewhere along the line or took on the coaching for the wrong reasons.

I would like to see that coaches give their services to their own club freely, that they involve themselves in beginners courses more than once a year, that they then progress with the beginner on a novices course until say one year, possibly 18 months after the beginners course. Thereafter their services are paid for.

If archers have progressed to the first year - 18 months, they will most likeley want to be continuing with the sport and some may wish to progress much further.

If the coach has prooved his worth during the initial period, then those archers will value him for what he/she is and appreciate that those services are valuable and should be rewarded accordingly.

The sticky subject is agreeing the cost of additonal coaching at a level that will not be so heavy as to deter, but a level that could be considered good value.

I for one would support such a system and support the right coach, but even during the initial stages, after the beginners course which is paid for anyway, there could always be a friendly type of 'thank you'' given to the coach in the form of gifts, a meal, a drink at the pub etc.... even a petrol tank top up.

If you relly believe that you would rather be a lonely coach just because you dont get paid, why renew your coaching certificate.... just shoot.

Malcolm ........ a very new boy!

[toonarmy]

just finished my beginners course - ( 2 week wait for members to get to know me before I'm hopefully accepted ! ) and have read this thread with great interest.
The club coach taught me 1 to 1 as we both work shifts - and the question I have now is - If I ask him to keep coaching me - is that considered OK? - or does he only coach the beginners courses?
Some on here want payment ( which I certainly don't mind paying !) and some don't - I would feel a little embarrassed to ask him if he will and if he wants paying for it !
Is there not some standardisation amongst clubs/ regional organisations to have some sort of information listed or put on a website etc.. basically advertising their services?
I for one would feel far more "confident" to approach a coach, already knowing whether he/she wanted to just to impart their experience for a particular purpose ( just improving / fun ) or for a more long term aim for coach and pupil !
I've just started and I'm hooked already and I know I want to practice as often as I can -and as ridiculous as it sounds - at 44 I want to have a decent chance to win something ! I may never have the talent to achieve this, but want to try. Will this ambition will be possible without a coach who would share my goal ? Opinions please !

[Harold's Eye,It wasn't me]

I don't think you can really ask us mate! You can only ask your coach.

I am a level 1 coach and can confidently take people through beginners courses and a little beyond but would definitely leave performance coaching to others.

I suspect if you ask the question of your coach (you don't tell us of his level) he will tell you where he stands on the issue of how far he will take you.

There are many archers who can achieve competitive status with the help of of voluntary coaches and a lot of research by themselves.

Elite status probably needs paid help (unless you are very lucky)

You are right that the coaching situation needs more than a little standardisation and I am sure our County is trying to get something sorted on this issue although they have a lot on their plate at the moment getting level 2 courses up and running.

[Alexam]

Originally Posted by Thunk

I'm still amazed that there's no formal course to follow on from the beginner stage. I realise that eventually people will branch out into other specialisms (compound, longbow, etc) but it seems to me that a follow-up recurve course, say six months after finishing the beginners course, is a no-brainer.

Hi Derik,

I have commented on this point a few months ago after finishing my beginners course, but it would appear that although most clubs have coaches, who are more than willing to help when asked, it is not the same as a having a structured follow on course to encourage new archers.

The huge loss of new archers completing their beginners course and then loosing interest a few months later and giving up the sport may be stemmed if there was a course to follow on.

The coaches could set a fee for this , which most would be willing to pay and therefore be rewarded for their time, but also benefit in seeing more archers progress within their club.

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong please ) but club coaches are not strictly permitted to charge for individual lessons. This may be different with more advanced coaching lessons.

Therefore, some coaches may consider that a lot of coaching with no reward to at least cover their costs is taking advantage of their time? Not the real reason I believe why archers should become coaches?

With a follow on course, they would be rewarded. The club need not partake of the fees, as it is only the coaches efforts involved but the club would benefit with more members staying on and progressing in the sport, rather than giving up or joining another club to become their competing champion.

Most clubs have one or more coaches, or can obtain the services of others nearby and share the course between clubs, so splitting the task should not be a problem and I do not understand why the GNAS do not try to formally put a follow on course into practice for all clubs runing beginners courses.

The potential to have really good archers in a club should be a priority, but perhaps the extra effort is far from the thoughts of the busy committee, resulting in continued loss of archers completing the beginners course.

It could be changed !!!

In the meantime, I will continue to study the books, work on my form and ask our coach for the occassional guidance to make sure I am on track.

Malcolm

[grimsby archer]

Originally Posted by Alexam

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong please ) but club coaches are not strictly permitted to charge for individual lessons. This may be different with more advanced coaching lessons.

Therefore, some coaches may consider that a lot of coaching with no reward to at least cover their costs is taking advantage of their time? Not the real reason I believe why archers should become coaches?

Coaches can charge for their services. GNAS insurance does not cover coaches to do paid coaching, so they have to pay extra for additional coaches insurance if they want to be paid. SportscoachUK offer this kind of insurance at £77 per year, so you need to be paid to pay sportscoachuk to get the insurance so you can get paid.

As a coach, the biggest part of the "reward" is seeing my efforts pay off in the results of those I coach. Thanks, payment in kind (chocolate, beer etc) expenses towards my petrol etc all help.

[Alexam]

Originally Posted by grimsby archer

Coaches can charge for their services. GNAS insurance does not cover coaches to do paid coaching, so they have to pay extra for additional coaches insurance if they want to be paid. SportscoachUK offer this kind of insurance at £77 per year, so you need to be paid to pay sportscoachuk to get the insurance so you can get paid.

As a coach, the biggest part of the "reward" is seeing my efforts pay off in the results of those I coach. Thanks, payment in kind (chocolate, beer etc) expenses towards my petrol etc all help.

That's a nice way to do it Chris, but there should be a way that the Club mets the cost of the extra insurance so that coaches can get more reward, perhaps limited because of the insurance cost met by the Club.

In that way a table of charges could be set out and new members would understand the way to move ahead, but it still needs the 'novice' course to follow on from the beginners, with a set fee for that course of lessons, then on to the Club rates.

I would be happy with such an arrangement but at present there is nothing laid down to be helpful to the 'new boys and girls'.

Keep up the good work

Malcolm

[grimsby archer]

Originally Posted by Alexam

That's a nice way to do it Chris, but there should be a way that the Club mets the cost of the extra insurance so that coaches can get more reward, perhaps limited because of the insurance cost met by the Club.

It all depends on your club's circumstances. As a coach and club secretary I can speak with both hats on (so to speak). My club paid for all of the coach training for all of our coaches (we have 9 in a club of 70) as we felt that was fair as it was the club and its members that would benefit directly from getting the coaches qualified. None of the coaches pay shooting fees whilst they are "working". You could argue that if a coach was charging say £25 per hour to coach an individual, the coach should pay the club for use of the facilities. Also, coaches earnings are taxable.

One of our big problems (even with 9 coaches) is we are often run off our feet with beginners courses and most of the coaches do like to get some personal shooting time. Perhaps they'd be prepared to work even harder with some cash benefit. Then again you've got to get the archers to pay too, a concept that seems alien in the world of archery.
I like the idea of the table of charges. If one coach charged whilst another gave it away free, you'd just get confusion.
The other problem is convincing the novices that they would actually benefit from on going coaching. So many finish their beginners course and then want to go it alone. Maybe our beginners courses are too good and we instill too much confidence in our beginners.
On the subject of charging, one of my coaches said recently that if we charged for our services, it would raise the archers' expectations of the coaches with them wanting to demand a level of service and specific dates and times.

I said sometime (months) ago on here (not sure if it was this thread or not) that I had planned out a novices course and promised to report back here how it went. So far, I'm still trying to find time to do it between beginners courses, one to one coaching and sitting on my backside One day eh?

[Alexam]

Originally Posted by grimsby archer

It all depends on your club's circumstances. As a coach and club secretary I can speak with both hats on (so to speak). My club paid for all of the coach training for all of our coaches (we have 9 in a club of 70) as we felt that was fair as it was the club and its members that would benefit directly from getting the coaches qualified. None of the coaches pay shooting fees whilst they are "working". You could argue that if a coach was charging say £25 per hour to coach an individual, the coach should pay the club for use of the facilities. Also, coaches earnings are taxable.

One of our big problems (even with 9 coaches) is we are often run off our feet with beginners courses and most of the coaches do like to get some personal shooting time. Perhaps they'd be prepared to work even harder with some cash benefit. Then again you've got to get the archers to pay too, a concept that seems alien in the world of archery.
I like the idea of the table of charges. If one coach charged whilst another gave it away free, you'd just get confusion.
The other problem is convincing the novices that they would actually benefit from on going coaching. So many finish their beginners course and then want to go it alone. Maybe our beginners courses are too good and we instill too much confidence in our beginners.
On the subject of charging, one of my coaches said recently that if we charged for our services, it would raise the archers' expectations of the coaches with them wanting to demand a level of service and specific dates and times.

I said sometime (months) ago on here (not sure if it was this thread or not) that I had planned out a novices course and promised to report back here how it went. So far, I'm still trying to find time to do it between beginners courses, one to one coaching and sitting on my backside One day eh?

Thanks Chris,

at least you are planning something...... don't let the dust settle too long.

I firmly believe that most of those who have gone through the beginners course and joined the club would welcome a Novice course for a set fee. After all they have the intention of shelling out a fair amount for equipment and want desperatly to be able to use it correctly and with skill that they will obviously realise takes time.

Coaches should give some free time to those wanting help and guidance, but often this is more a few 'pointers' rather than a set time for a specific task. There needs to be a judgement call on what is required and by whom.

If the request is from someone say within 12 months of starting the beginners course with the club and they had signed up for the Novices course and the request was for specific time on a one to one basis, then perhaps a Rate 'A' (a lower rate) could be quoted per hour for the Novice. If for a more experianced archer then Rate 'B' normal rates.

The coaches could continue the 'freebie' for a add hoc pointers or the odd half hour with one or more archers, but if the system is set up, I feel that it would encourage others clubs to follow suit and clarify the present confussion for new archers wanting to 'move on' as soon as they can and not feel ''obligated' to make a gesture of payment or not......... it can become embarasing!!

Coaching is an essential part of good performance, without being done correctly it could result in new archers loosing interest after getting various guidance from those not trained to coach.

What a shame it would be to loose those with the potential to become County champions or even future Olympians, which may be prevented by a simple system being put in place. Be one of the first to set up your Novices course and Table of Charges Chris. You have got it made already with 9 coaches to compare their ideas and set the initial figures.

Let me know if you do......... let us all know by publishing the set-up on Interchange.

Good shooting

Malcolm

[Trunkles]

Originally Posted by grimsby archer

I said sometime (months) ago on here (not sure if it was this thread or not) that I had planned out a novices course and promised to report back here how it went.

I too would be interested in seeing the plans. I think we need to do something for the novices but time....

County offers a development squad for juniors so some of ours have managed to get the extra they need that way but there is less for the seniors. There have been some coaching days at county level as well so lets hope they continue but I know everyone is so busy with multiple hats.

It would be good to offer something within the club - I feel our novices would benefit. If I do the Level2 next year then that might be something that comes out of that.

[cestria]

We have a structured shooting plan for our beginners. Once the course is over we have a 4 week 'advanced' course which gives a little more theory and insight to archery not covered on the course. During this time any shooting is carried out alongside a 'mentor' who helps oversee the transition from beginner to 'novice'. As we have our beginners indoors, we have a set target score to get at 20yds on a 122cm face before moving to a 80cm and again a target score to get before moving onto 60cm and proper rounds. Our head coach revues the score sheets and gently suggests progress every week so no one feels like they are shooting beyond their level but everyone is encouraged to try improve their handicap with incentives of club awards and medals. It may take a little while to get to the longer distances but you feel totally relaxed so there is a great atmosphere at the club.
I recently shot with a guy from a local club, who was telling me that he entered a York not long after his beginners’ course, and is still suffering mentally due to his understandably poor performance.