More arrows: quality or quantity?

[Russ]

I've been having a stamina problem recently. There's no change in my equipment (so it's definitely not because I've gone up in draw weight or made the bow heavier with new stabilisors or anything).

I can get off about 24 arrows (30 on a good day) before getting tired, then my form starts to go. The problem seems to be in my bow shoulder: once I get tired it "collapses" at full draw, so I can't pull through the clicker unless I force it by pushing, or by drawing past my anchor point. Groupings go immediately from gold to black & blue.

How should I work to increase the number of arrows back up to something useful (for example the minimum 60 + sighters for a Portsmouth)? Just flinging arrows with bad, tired form seems really unconstructive.

Working up incrementally doesn't seem to be the answer either, partly because I'm only at the range 3 times a week (so progress would have to be VERY slow), and also because it's just not worth the hour-and-a-half round trip to the range and back just to shoot 30 arrows.

30 arrows just doesn't seem like a lot for a healthy adult male (I don't think I'm too deluded in calling myself a healthy adult male, either - though I can think of some friends who might be encouraged to comment... )

Any ideas?

[Schme1440]

Quality. You need to adjust your bow arm shoulder. Sounds like it is too high. You need to lower the solder before drawin the bow. Its hard to explain. Put your arms beside you and note where your shoulder is. Then lift the arm and try to stop the shoulder from lifting. This is where it needs to be and will allow you to set your shoulder properly which will allow the shoulder to be more relaxed. Also take longer between each arrow. If you waiting longer between each arrow it will help as well.

[dino1300]

Following on from Schme1440,

Stand upright, arms by your side.
Place your right hand on your left shoulder, at the top and end of the joint, and then go about 1" towards the back. Feel it and you should find the corner where the shoulder joint goes down.
Keep you hand there and then raise your left hand up, feeling that you are raising the hand with the middle or ring ringer, so that your wrist is level with the shoulder (and right hand in this exercise).
Your front hand should now have the knuckles at about 30 - 45 degrees to the vertical, and importantly you should feel a V in the muscles between your shoulder and upper arm muscles (not sure what they are called)
This means (a) that your shoulder is down in the biomechanical correct position, and (b) that the upper arm and triceps muscles are engaged and ready to use.

You should be able to stay in this position comfortably for 10 - 30 secs.

To test it, relax then come to the same position. Then raise your shoulder up one or two inches. You will feel different muscles come into play, especially in the neck and shoulder area. You will probably feel discomfort after 5 - 10 secs.

[Russ]

Actually Schme1440, you describe it very well. I just tried a few reversals with your suggestion; when I do this it feels a lot more stable, kind of like a "pull" down the left side (i.e. "bow" side) of my back. I'll get to try it with an arrow on the string when the range opens again on Tuesday. Thanks for the tip.

[Jimster71]

That's useful information.

I've noticed my shoulder coming up when my bow arm is getting tired. I conciously have to sit it back down again. I'll have to pay more attention to what is happening when I am raising/drawing the bow

[Russ]

Originally Posted by dino1300

Following on from Schme1440,

Stand upright, arms by your side.
Place your right hand on your left shoulder, at the top and end of the joint, and then go about 1" towards the back. Feel it and you should find the corner where the shoulder joint goes down.
Keep you hand there and then raise your left hand up, feeling that you are raising the hand with the middle or ring ringer, so that your wrist is level with the shoulder (and right hand in this exercise).
Your front hand should now have the knuckles at about 30 - 45 degrees to the vertical, and importantly you should feel a V in the muscles between your shoulder and upper arm muscles (not sure what they are called)
This means (a) that your shoulder is down in the biomechanical correct position, and (b) that the upper arm and triceps muscles are engaged and ready to use.

You should be able to stay in this position comfortably for 10 - 30 secs.

To test it, relax then come to the same position. Then raise your shoulder up one or two inches. You will feel different muscles come into play, especially in the neck and shoulder area. You will probably feel discomfort after 5 - 10 secs.

Thanks, dino; your directions are very specific so it took me a few minutes to figure this one out, but I think I've got it now and yes, this is definitely where it's happening. As I said, I'll get to try it with arrows on the string in a few days. I have the feeling this will take care of a large part of my "stamina" problem.

But in the meantime (bow-shoulder questions aside), does anyone have a tried-and-true "method" for increasing the number of arrows? Or is the most sensible thing just to try to shoot a few more every time?

[WhitehartFB]

Originally Posted by Schme1440

If you waiting longer between each arrow it will help as well.

Schme makes an important point, many archers rush to shoot 3 or 6 arrows I was told that you should allow at least 20 seconds between arrows to let your muscles recover.

Also find a way of resting your bow arm between shots such as taking the weight on the stabiliser on the ground or the bottom limb tip on your foot otherwise you will be holding the weight of the bow all the time you are on the line not letting it recover.

[Schme1440]

Originally Posted by Whitehart

Schme makes an important point, many archers rush to shoot 3 or 6 arrows I was told that you should allow at least 20 seconds between arrows to let your muscles recover.

Also find a way of resting your bow arm between shots such as taking the weight on the stabiliser on the ground or the bottom limb tip on your foot otherwise you will be holding the weight of the bow all the time you are on the line not letting it recover.

Absolutely. I use to Shoot an arrow then place my bottom limb on my foot then count to 20. I even use to wait for the amber light (on a fita) before shooting my last arrow. Mainly to wind my dad up

[Random_guy]

Form master and many many reversals! I got new limbs that i knew would be a bit too heavy for me and have been working up to shooting a decent number of good arrows from them. Personally i do drawings (simply drawing and coming down repeatedly, but make sure its controlled, especially when you're coming down) combined with 10 second holdings (full draw for 10, down for 10, full draw for 10 etc).

See how many of each you can do (with a form master!) making sure your form is correct (in front of a mirror helps if possible) and see how many you can do before your bow shoulder starts to lift. Once it does, take a break, do something else. Come back to it in a few hours and do it again. It will probably take fewer before you get tired the second time. I do this every day i don't shoot barring one day a week to rest, and let the muscles rejuvinate (or the 2 days before a comp...).

The form master is IMO the best training aid out there, and if you want a cheap and cheerful version, Archery World do their own version for £9.50 (altho they have a minimum order of £10 so you have to get something else too ) or just make one!

[dino1300]

Originally Posted by Schme1440

Absolutely. I use to Shoot an arrow then place my bottom limb on my foot then count to 20. I even use to wait for the amber light (on a fita) before shooting my last arrow. Mainly to wind my dad up

Ahh the good old days of the amber gamblers!

Yes, have a sufficient gap for your muscles to recover. 10 secs from release to starting the next draw should be sufficient if you are fit. 20 if not. That does not mean that you cannot get ready during that time. There was a study in the Glade ( i think ) on the oxygen levels in Field archers, and it showed that you reach about 98% of your previous levels within 10 seconds, assuming you rememer to do deep breathing after each shot.

In 'Total Archery' there is a study on the relative arrow speed of each shot if shooting slowly to quickly. Strangely the quick(ish) gap gave much more repeatable arrow speeds.