Stabilisation - TFCs again

[hooktonboy]

Ummmm, I've been trawling through the stabilisation threads recently and I have a question please - I sort of think the answer's somewhere in the threads but my brain isn't quite getting it.

TFCs are considered "old-hat", yes? Modern equipment not needing it? The schools of thought range from a considered "may be useful if it feels good" to "baaaaad - don't go there"......BUT.....there seems to be a fair following amongst compound shooters. So, if a TFC between bow and longrod is good for compound, why is it bad for recurve - as it must be serving a similar purpose? Especially if you're not a keen user of vbars and twins?

I expect my brain will kick in eventually....

[wingate_52]

It is thought that it is better to have the rubber between the weight and the rod.Or fashion dictates.

[geoffretired]

Old style TFC's made the connection nearest the bow into a flexible joint. It made the bow feel nice and got rid of much vibration. What it didn't do very well, was stabilise the bow during the power stroke.
Modern equivalents like Doinkers have the flexibility at the far end of the rods usually, so the stabilisers still do the job but the vibration induced into the rigid rods was greatly reduced.
Is that the sort of thing you wanted to know?

[Jerry Tee]

It's very simple, modern long rods are designed to have the correct amount of flex in them. Beiters have tuners to allow you to vary that flex, you may choose the number of tuners and alter their position. TFC's were made for long rods that were far too stiff to be used on there own so the TFC was mounted between the riser and the long rod to allow an adjustable amount of flex in to the equation. TFC's fitted to long rods end up adjusted very stiff as they should be because the of lenght of the long rod. But they still allow flex they are not done up so tight that they nothing.
My experience is not the same as Geoffs' I found that they were good at damping during the power stroke but then mine was done up very tight. TFC's will not replace a 'V' bar and twins

[geoffretired]

To Follow up what Jerry said, so there is no confusion, my TFC's were on the short rods only and not so stiff by the sound of things. Sorry, I should have said that at the start.
Some of the modern dampers(if that's the right description, are solid rods with a weight suspended round the outside like Saturn's rings. The space between is filled with flexible material.

[hooktonboy]

Thanks for all of that - it is helpful - and I think I see where some of this makes some sense. I understand that the TFC/longrod combination wouldn't replace a V bar and twins - as they're for different purposes aren't they?

The rods/ weights on the end are primarily about COG and resisting torque - damping in whatever form is about vibration control (desirable in all the components of the setup?) Still brings me back to the bit I was really wondering about - TFC and longrod for compound is OK? Admittedly recurve - I think - has more need of torque resistance (sideways forces during release?) therefore even more additional weight further out from the riser. But you would want to control torque on a compound too? - hence some darksiders (but not many) use V bars and twins.

OK I guess the answer is modern materials have less need of/ different ways of controlling unwanted vibration - those ways being integral to the materials' properties. That certainly deals with the overall question of TFCs - Still struggling with why its "good for compound, bad for recurve" though.

[geoffretired]

When any bowstring is released, the bow is subjected to a force that causes the top of the riser to tip back quickly towards the archer. I think it can be described as recoil torque or similar. On a recurve, the length of the bow is a stabilising influence in itself. In a compound, often with 60lb peak weight, the shortness of the bow provides very little resistence to that force. The long rod is one of the main methods of reducing the effects.
If I put a TFC between my bow and the long rod, much of it's use in resisting that form of torque would be lost.
I wonder if the "Fair following amongst compound shooters" is a representative sample. Also, are they using TFC's of the old style; the sort that provides a flexible joint at the bow?

[hooktonboy]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

When any bowstring is released, the bow is subjected to a force that causes the top of the riser to tip back quickly towards the archer. I think it can be described as recoil torque or similar. On a recurve, the length of the bow is a stabilising influence in itself. In a compound, often with 60lb peak weight, the shortness of the bow provides very little resistence to that force. The long rod is one of the main methods of reducing the effects.
If I put a TFC between my bow and the long rod, much of it's use in resisting that form of torque would be lost.
I wonder if the "Fair following amongst compound shooters" is a representative sample. Also, are they using TFC's of the old style; the sort that provides a flexible joint at the bow?

Thanks Geoff, that helps even more. I think I was thinking too much about the lateral torque rather than top-bottom rotation. I guess that with a TFC "in the way" there will be a moment where the rubber (or whatever) takes up the movement - in that very short time the bow will behave as if its not stabilised at all. That must also apply to lateral twist even though the actual force must be much less then the top/bottom rotation.

Makes more sense now.

Maybe I exaggerated the "following" amongst compound shooters a little - given the shortness of most compounds and the high peak weights there would seem to be even less reason to use a TFC on a compound than on a recurve.

As ever, your posts help my brain to work

[geoffretired]

I think I'm like you in the way that I hate mysteries too.

[hooktonboy]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

I think I'm like you in the way that I hate mysteries too.

I never got out of the "why, why, but why" habit!I've got a week off work - just leaves more time for asking.......and a welcome break from putting spinwings on a dozen arrows. Man I hate fletching spinwings