Tiller

[geoffretired]

Hollowpoint, I have looked at the video and if I am seeing things correctly, the tilting riser is the result of the direction of the draw. To start the draw is fairly level so the riser is steady. Then the draw hand starts to pull slightly downhill, causing the bow to tilt backwards at the top, to match that new draw direction.You would get the same tilt if you raised the bow compared to the draw hand as if shooting clout.
You could demonstrate a similar effect yourself. Draw your bow as if to get your hand on your nose, then part way through, change as if to reach your chin. You should see the bow tilt back at the top as the direction changes.

[hollowpoint]

Originally Posted by geoffretired

Hollowpoint, I have looked at the video and if I am seeing things correctly, the tilting riser is the result of the direction of the draw. To start the draw is fairly level so the riser is steady. Then the draw hand starts to pull slightly downhill, causing the bow to tilt backwards at the top, to match that new draw direction.You would get the same tilt if you raised the bow compared to the draw hand as if shooting clout.
You could demonstrate a similar effect yourself. Draw your bow as if to get your hand on your nose, then part way through, change as if to reach your chin. You should see the bow tilt back at the top as the direction changes.

thanks geoffretired! i m gonna check and see if my bow will behave the same with that drawing sequence.

[BorderBows]

Originally Posted by sp220

Yes indeed. However, in contrast to my post above about seeing Park Sung Hyun shoot (who I am told uses extreme tiller) with a high wrist...

Michelle Frangilli uses the other end of the scale (zero tiller), but ALSO shoots on the other end of the scale in terms of his wrist postition in that he shoots with it very low...


Do you see a picture building?

In fact its just becoming apparent to me. Coincidence? Or is it related? I think so...

It also is forced by the grip location on the riser. Is high pushing low in the same location as low pushing high?

[BorderBows]

in days gone by, we nearly made some tillered limbs for Frangilli with extra tiller to help reduce limb flap due to the low grip pressure. This didnt happen though.
but its possible.
It depends on how low you go, but the tiller would be more like 6-8mm...
The more off centre you hold the balance, the more off balance you need to go to compensate... Some string walkers prefer negative tiller!

My original query, was do you reset your tiller if you change your brace height. Or if you change your preload? If you get the chance to measure it before and after these two changes, you will see that the measurement you had before is now not the same. Low brace hight gives less tiller showing, than the same bolt settings at a higher brace height. Which is right? and do you think you need to reset it if you change your brace height?

[BorderBows]

ok. So the static measurement of 4mm as an example, at say a low brace height, should be re-adjusted if the BH is at max.

Limb bolt Pre load has the same effect on tiller measurement as BH. It changes what you see, if you change the setting. Your BH is abit like preload, The net result is your stressing your limbs more? so the relationship shows more...

But if the tiller of 4mm is a static measurement, then that relationship is set by the bolts. That relationship progresses though the shot cycle.
If that 4mm becomes 5mm with a higher BH then it will be more at full draw. And that is what is needed to achieve closer of the limbs equally? So if you stress your limbs more with a higher BH then that relationship should still be the same...
if you reset you tiller at the higher BH to be back to 4mm then that relationship would be 1mm out? closure is then not symetrical?
For example. If you have two cars, one is achiveing the 1/4 mile in 2 seconds less then the other that is fact and you cant change it, and you want them to reach the finish at the same time, The you need to make the track a little longer for the faster car, or shorter for the slower car...(tiller)
So all you have done is made the distance a variable now (BH/preload), and made the time the constant. acceleration is something you cant play with. In which case the track is now variable.
With the BH change you have changed the track length. The cars still have a 2second differece of 1/4 mile. and if you then say they still have a 2 second time difference over 1/8th mile...
NO they still have a 2 second time difference over 1/4 mile. its just now showing as 1 second over 1/8 mile. If you reset the track to 2 seconds over 1/4 mile the cars wont finish at the same time?
4mm at 7" is still 4mm at 7" if you wind you bolts in, it will show as say 5mm. or increase BH will show 5mm. or both will show 7mm. but thats still the same ratio of 4mm at the original setting?
need more beer

[Stretch]

Runs very close to your other thread.

If you change anything on our bow you are looking for some effect. If you get the effect you're looking for you win the big pink teddy. If you don't you have two options -

1. Put it back
2. Change something else in your search for the grail
3. goto 1

With experience comes a better idea of what is wrong but it is based on all the changes you've made and the result that change had. No rules.

Of course if you're lucky you don't care what it sounds or feels like and you are equipment neutral. This condition is rare in archers but when it happens the symptoms are frequently higher more consistent scores, more money in the bank, more spare time and more space in your cupboards.

But now that you mention it beer sounds good.

Stretch

[BorderBows]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Runs very close to your other thread.

If you change anything on our bow you are looking for some effect. If you get the effect you're looking for you win the big pink teddy. If you don't you have two options -

1. Put it back
2. Change something else in your search for the grail
3. goto 1

With experience comes a better idea of what is wrong but it is based on all the changes you've made and the result that change had. No rules.

Of course if you're lucky you don't care what it sounds or feels like and you are equipment neutral. This condition is rare in archers but when it happens the symptoms are frequently higher more consistent scores, more money in the bank, more spare time and more space in your cupboards.

But now that you mention it beer sounds good.

Stretch

Yes, i started this to see if others had noticed what we were saying. If you dont know that a door opens up to another room, then you will never see the full size of the house, nor will you be able to get the full use of the house if you dont know how to open a door and the implications it brings.
If you know that the 3-5mm of tiller is a guide and that the guide is at a set setting, and you understand the pot holes infront of you then you needn't go back, you can step forwards, more often.

This is a a topic even we were scared to start, so im not sure if anyone else would have.

The static tiller measurement is at one setting but the ratio is set. The rest is all just that ratio manifesting itself in a different form, but the ratio your after is still the same?

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by BorderBows

This is a a topic even we were scared to start, so im not sure if anyone else would have.

The static tiller measurement is at one setting but the ratio is set. The rest is all just that ratio manifesting itself in a different form, but the ratio your after is still the same?

I think both of these threads are great - they really have me thinking about what and how I do it. Which is interesting for me anyway!

Looking at your last line I think my answer is Yes but I can feel my engineering brain crawling up from the pits of disuse - and I don't think I'm going to let it. So I'm going to cop out and say "Yes, if it feels right".

I have to admit that I've seen the terms static and dynamic tiller used in some many different ways - I'm scared to use them myself. But largely I consider the static tiller as the things that affect the way the bow aims. Limb tiller, stabilisers, grip/pressure point, riser geometry, weight and balance - others? Some of these you can consider fixed through your chosen style, riser, stabilser pattern etc

For sake of simplicity Dynamic tiller is about what the limb tips and nocking point are doing during the shot cycle a lot of this is just nocking point and finger position but the limb tiller (among others) also affects it (more so on some limbs than others) so hey ho you have a variable in the static and dynamic tiller equations. In which case I'd fix it for good results in dynamic and look at the other options to get the bow aiming. Of course getting this perfect without high speed cameras is pretty much impossible but if you can't feel it you're probably close enough.

So a bow with *poor* dynamic tiller will feel and probably sound bad.

A bow with *poor* static tiller will be harder to aim.



Enjoy

Stretch

[BorderBows]

Stretch, your just up the road from us, you should pop down for a visit and we can talk bows!

There are clearly two camps in terms of tuning, one is, tune the bow to the person, the other is tune the person to the bow, and both camps provide results. So neither is more right, we know that! Its just always interesting to hear how others do it, and we are BorderBows not BorderPeople so you can see what we think in many respects. (its not as Black and White as that but its a start)

Static tiller is one measureable item to represent the dynamic action. As you say, the dynamic is very hard to measure so a subjective "feel" is needed, to prove the static measurement. My question is the static measurement is a representation of the dynamic, at one position on the bow. At one setup. If you change the preload or the BH then the measurement looks different but the feel of the shot should not be too far off, if the measurement is not remeasured. Anyhow ive said that before.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by BorderBows

Stretch, your just up the road from us, you should pop down for a visit and we can talk bows!

Yes indeed - JohnK and yourself almost have me convinced

Originally Posted by BorderBows

My question is the static measurement is a representation of the dynamic, at one position on the bow. At one setup. If you change the preload or the BH then the measurement looks different but the feel of the shot should not be too far off, if the measurement is not remeasured. Anyhow ive said that before.

For fear of cycling the thread. With my "try not to think it out too much" approach. i'd only be changing the BH if I was looking for a specific result (noise, grouping, clearance maybe etc) if the bow feels right after I've made the change or groups improve (depending on which point I have reached) then I don't really care. Vice versa if it is worse I'll probably reverse the change. It is a very iterative process and unless you get quite lucky it can take a very long time. However, you should be able to get the setup to 1200 FITA in a day. (Unless you have mismatched arrows, clearance issues etc which obviously can take longer!)

Of course I've also got lucky - my first Stylist took about 2 hours to tune - even with overspine arrows it was pasting 1200+ very quickly. My first Stylist supreme was similar. All of my Hoyts have taken a bit longer (GM, Avalon 1, 2, +, Elan, Radian, Axis, Aerotec, Helix - and I'd say that I was never happy with the GM, Elan or Radian) The best tune I ever had was with an Avalon C+ X10 combo that was just so easy to shoot but it took about three months to get into shape tweak tweak tweak.

Please note that the above is not a comment on the risers - it was a comment on how I got on with the risers.

Cheers

Stretch