Scythian Arrows

[yoda]

nice pic again m8 but are you drawing it to it's full potential (if you know what i mean), seems it has a lot more to go to get the fullness out of it?

obviously you know better than me as i'm still waiting for mine, but i thought it would look more like the scythian at full draw tbh.

cheers for the reply and pic m8, thought i'd have to wait ages on a sat night lol.

shaun

[N.Vodden]

heh, not out tonight

i draw a tad over 29" and it has a max draw length of about 32" iirc. Its a much larger bow and with the siyahs as well it has a less severe string angle.

[yoda]

cheers for that, i draw 27-1/2 on a compound with a wrist release. i tried a 40lbs self bow (which seemed easy to draw, prob because of drawing 57lbs on the compound) and decided i'd go for a 45lbs kassai.

been reading off the grozer site how to string it, should shock the club coach when i do it lol.

cheers again m8

shaun

[Íjász]

I'm a bit of a newbie to trad so can't say much but what I've noticed out here (Hungary), at least the little I've seen so far, is that leaving the arrow at full length (32+in) seems to be the norm rather than cutting it down to just above draw length. Suppose it gives a softer arrow as well as making sight marks a little easier?

[^HUN^]

Originally Posted by Íjász

I'm a bit of a newbie to trad so can't say much but what I've noticed out here (Hungary), at least the little I've seen so far, is that leaving the arrow at full length (32+in) seems to be the norm rather than cutting it down to just above draw length. Suppose it gives a softer arrow as well as making sight marks a little easier?

Most wooden shafts are sold at 32" and are spined at this length, the moment you reduce the length, you increase the spine. Honestly though, using 32" arrows with a drawlength of 26" for example, would be bordering on being silly, but that is not to say that a slightly overlength arrow does not fly better.

Now then, about Scythian arrows...
Generally, in the west, Scythian finds have produced arrows around the 55-60cm range (around 2ft) which are fairly short arrows considering many skeletons measured 6ft+. Quadratus is quite right when he says Greek art depicts the bow being drawn to the chest but there are also depictions of the string being drawn to the ear. The Scythian style finds at Urumqi in Xinjiang suggest arrows of 80cm (31.5"), the bow itself around 119cm.
The eastern Scythians are generally referred to as Saka. It is not known whether they were seperate peoples (probably just an eastern branch) but ethnically they were very similar, both being Indo Iranian, with fair hair and western features, however there is evidence of some Mongoloid mixture in some finds.

The bows mentioned in this thread are replicas and are not composite. Though they are similar shape wise, they are not really very accurate depictions. Scythian bows were very angular and narrow; cross sectionally they were thick (not the flat limbs of these replicas) and the limb tips were extremely recurved (almost like a shepherds crook) There is a bowyer in Germany who is doing a lot of reseach into Scythian bow design and he makes some stunning horn, wood and sinew examples.

[Íjász]

@ <Hun> , I was under the impression that all arrows, irrespective of their length as sold were spined at 28 in?

I don't know anything about the Scythians (in fact I don't know anything about anything) but I've recently being doing a bit of reading on the battle tactics of the Huns and the Magyars). Both Kassai and Fields maintain that not only were the bows used at reletaviely close ranges from horseback, but also that they were used at longer distances either from the horse or foot. If I remeber correctly without checking the books something like 200m plus. Is it possible that if the same bows was used with a draw to the chest on horseback = short arrow, but that at longer range. draw to the ear, possibly on foot = long arrow? Just a thought any info or reading lists appreciated

[^HUN^]

Hello Ijasz,
The composite bow underwent quite some transformation from the Scythian form circa 500 bce to the Magyars of the 10thC or the Mongols of the 13thC. In fact, its history goes back further still, to ancient Egypt. The introduction of rigid siyahs to the limb tips went some way to increasing the draw length but they are in no way necessary for this, as can be seen in Korean bows. These little bows draw 32"+ and their limbs achieve frightening angles. The siyahs of these bows are constructed in a different way and do flex. Though the dimensions of these two bows are similar, the Scythian did not possess the flat limbs and are almost as thick as they are wide.

Steppe tactics were pretty similar throughout the various peoples: Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Avars, Magyars, Khazars, Pechenegs, Qipchaqs. Usually the enemy was denied engagement and harried until drawn out of formation by feigned retreat or overimpetuousness. At this point various bands, often operating as family groups would gallop into the confusion, loosing their arrows as they went. In fact, it can be likened to their herding techniques in some respects, the Huns in particular used lassos to devastating effect.
The larger bows of the Huns evolved into a shorter, more reflexed weapon and supposedly reached its zenith with the Turkish design.

You are in Hungary, have you been to the National Museum in Budapest? It's a place I've been wanting to go for ages. Plenty of artefacts relating to these steppe nomads.
There are many books that cover the subject but more in a historical study of each timeframe rather than a study of the composite bow. If you want to find out about the Magyars or the Avars and such without reading indepth books, the Osprey series are quite good. They contain a fair amount of historical information, brief descriptions of any memorable battles and colour plates depicting arms and armour, based on archaeological finds.

[Íjász]

Hi <hun>,
Unfortunaetely live bit away from Budapest and as I work through the week and Mrs Íjász works at weekends its not so easy to get there! Out of all the museums I've been to in Bp thats not one of them, guess it'll be a must do on the next visit. Thanx for the info.
P