Go easy, but newbie tuning questions ....

[robthebuilder]

OK, first 'proper' post to the forum, but I'm kinda running out of knowledge and experience here, so need some advice ....

Ron Palmer 57lb bow (wot it says on the tin, not measured). New (well, three weeks new, and in Ron's terms, that's a baby, so I'm told). Quite comfortable at pulling it to a full draw, but I may be a smidgeon overbowed - I tire a bit after a set of 12 (I know that I should have got a slightly lighter one, then the one that I wanted, but not really an option, so don't give me a hard time, please). I have a paddock at the bottom of my garden with a 70m butt (straw bales - no money left after buying bow), and that's my normal sort of range, although I'm practicing at 40 yds to at least have a chance of hitting something other than the floor.

Problem I have is arrows striking the side of the bow. Having Hilary G's book, and what others have told me, 2/3 to 3/4 of the draw weight of the bow is the rough guide to the arrows spine, so I've got 40lb shafts on at 30" (long arms, and my draw is a full 28"). I re-read the book (among several others, I hasten to add), and it says that a low bracing height will cause the shafts to hit. I raise the height to the maximum that Ron has rote on his bit of paper in the packet of 6 1/4". No joy. Still hit the side.

I build a spine tester from the book. You can see I'm kind of getting a bit obsessive now - I'm going to shot this bow properly if it kills me (no chance of killing anything else at the moment, certainly not a straw bale). I measure the new shafts, and an old one at 50lbs to give me a benchmark. I sand them down (carefully), until they look about 35lbs. Try them out - don't hit the sides, but don't go where I want them !! Oh, and I have a real problem with the string hitting my front forearm, like 2 inches from my wrist. Don't know if it's connected, but it hurts. Yes, I could use a bracer, but couldn't be ar**ed, and it was cold, so I had my fleece on, which the bracer doesn't fit over, yada, yada ....

A lot of preamble, but two questions - is it ok to shoot 30-35lb arrows on an (allegedly) 57 bow, and/or (particularly for Palmer bows) and I still underbraced, hence the problems ? Can/should I raise it further ? Any other clues ?

Apologies for all this, but I'm really trying to understand what's going on, and I can't. Any help truly appreciated.

All these variables, it's worse than a bl**dy maths test....

[English Bowman]

First questions, how long have you been shooting, and how did you learn?
Have you been taught by someone who knows how to teach longbow style?
And last question, how good are you?
Tuning can only be done to the level of the archer, and if you are new to the longbow, forget tuning for a while, and get the technique right, it's different to a recurve or compound. I suspect that you are holding the bow wrong if you are slapping your arm with the string. You should hold the bow with the knuckle of the thumb in the centre of the belly of the bow like this.

This will move your bow arm out of the way of the string. Unlike this

Which is a recurve style grip, you can see that the string is touching my bracer here.
Also do you have a locked, or a slightly bent elbow at full draw?
Again with a longbow you need to have the elbow bent slightly out of the way. (But only slightly too far will cause problems.)

[robthebuilder]

Thanks for the questions - all relevant !

I've been shooting about 2 years on and off. All reenactment stuff, but with more modern bows than would traditionally pass muster.

Grip is something that someone warned me about, and is probably the one thing that I get right - I am an ex rock climber, so do have a reasonable hand/finger strength and awareness.

I do have my elbow bent slightly (not locked), but I'm not sure it stays there. I've got a feeling that I'm drawing too far over to my left (right handed archer - should have said!). I've tried moving my stance over a bit, but the jury is still out on that ....

Unfortunately, I do not have anyone local to me who can have a look as yet - there are clubs around, but time is an issue. If anyone could recommend any good longbow clubs around Preston, I would be grateful ...

This is all good - anything more ?

[steve58]

My thoughts come with the health warning that I have not been shooting much longer than you and there are far more knowledgeable people than me around. On the other hand a couple of years ago when I started shooting longbow I probably made every mistake in the book, so I know how it feels!

I noticed that you say you are a rock climber, does this mean you have incredibly strong hands/fingers? If so this may be affecting your loose and causing the string to hit the bracer/arm where the bracer might be? Someone quoted the image in one thread of the shot falling from the archer like snow from a leaf, I think with really strong fingers the danger would be to shoot with a muscular effort in the fingers, when I catch myself doing this it is always a rubbish shot.

On the arrows, I would go for a heavier spine, especially if using Fastflight. Even on Dacron I was using 40/45 spine on my 45 pound bow and they went fine (29" from nock slot to shoulder of the pile, 100 grain points, 4" fletch, point on gold at 80 yards). On my 53 pounder I use 50/55 spine and they go fine, as do 45/50 spine (the 40/45 spine ones will go off this bow, but the results are not good!). Probably the comment about technique first was good advice though.

Good luck!

[English Bowman]

Another area to look at is the loose.
What anchor point do you use?
When you have finished the shot where is your hand?

As for the arrow spine, I'd say that you're probably about right with what you've got as Palmer bows aren't the fastest in the world. They are great for the money, fairly smooth and stable, but, they are slow compared to some bowyers out there. The thing with spine for a longbow though, is that it has guidelines, not rules, and what works for one archer doesn't for another, so once you're happy with your technique try making up 3 arrows that are weaker than your current ones, and 3 that are stiffer, shoot them and see how they go.

Daniel

[Macbow]

It sounds to me like a form issue but without seeing you shoot difficult to offer a solution.
A couple of years ago a mate and I were helping a club member with his new longbow set-up (50lb bow and it was his first bow). We decided that 40-45lb with 100g points was probably best, however, my mate who has good form and a clean release was getting very good results with shafts spined 40-65lbs. All arrows grouping nicely at 20 yards indoor irrespective of spine whereas the guy we were helping out was spraying them all over the place. We gave up on him after a while as he really wasn't keen on swapping his longbow for a club bow and learning how to shoot properly. Sadly after weeks of frustration he never came back.
I honestly don't think a longbow is significantly harder to shoot or harder to tune than any other bow as long as you have decent form.
I would try 6 shafts 45-50 and 6 @ 50-55 (contact Dennis at Goldflight who will happily split a matched dozen for you). Put 100g points on three and 125g on the other three of each set and mark them so you know which is which. Use 3" feathers as big 5" shields can hide a multitude of sins - when you get the right spine then put on nice big trad fletchings.
Set your brace to the recommended height and shoot them from 15 yards. See where they go. Are they grouping well? If so where? If nothing is grouping consistently then it's your form that's wrong and you really need to get that sorted before the next stage. Shafts striking the riser are more often due to torqueing the bow on release or possibly having an anchor point that is pulling the string out of alignment. Back tension and a solid bow arm is the cure rather than a tight grip.
If you are getting regular tight groups anywhere on the face then find the arrows that are impacting closest to the spot. Move back another 5 yards and shoot them again watching for fishtailing and porpoising which can be corrected by adjusting nocking point position, point weight and to a minor extent the brace height.
Basically form first then work on tuning. Hope this helps but try and find a coach or another good longbow archer to watch what you are doing.

I'm not familiar with Palmer bows so Daniel is probably right regarding spine.

[robthebuilder]

Thanks for all the good advice - lots to think about ...

Seems like I need to find a good archer to have a look fairly soon. My release hand ends up about the same place where it held the string. I anchor just alongside my chin (same place, honest ! - just difficult without pictures, and I can't do that while shooting the d*mn thing )

I'm not a hugely powerful bloke (read balance and finesse for climbing, rather than gorilla ), so not sure about that. It would seem that the form (or lack of it) and loose may well be the problem.

Off to find a club and a coach, then. Anyone know any around Preston ? Recommendations, anyone ?

Thanks again.

[gino]

I'd recomend using a bracer, if it hits your arm then subconsciously you're going to twist your arm to get it out of the way and things are just going to get worse.

also, beware of shooting low spined arrow, i discovered this a month ago when a 35lb arrow shot off a 65lb bow exploded on me. I didn't even think of spining when I did it but it was a stupid mistake. See if you can get someone to measure the weight of your bow now it's settled a bit and have another go at spining those arrows.

[robthebuilder]

Thanks to all for the advice - it worked !

Spent a day on the range working on the various suggestions (especially concentrating on my loose), changed the arrows a bit, et voila - all 10 hit within 2ft at 40 yards (hey, that's good for me !) and all on the butt at 70 yards. No sore arm, the soft twang of the string, the 'swoooosh' from the fletchings as they depart, the thunk as it hits, and no more bow impacts.

Thanks again for getting me going right. Can't wait to get back out there, but the sun's gone down

[English Bowman]

Well done, keep up the good work!

Daniel